I am not promoting nor degrading the steeriods system. I think it is great that apparently for the majority it works well, but for the other group it does not such as with my case. If you car concerned about the failure of the brackets, then you should do as I did and have a current bracket custom welded/reinforced such as I did. I significantly strengthened the steeriods mounting design and now feel very comfortable driving. Here are some pics. Basically I took the larger vertical mounting plate and had some custom lateral support welded to it on the top & bottom of where the R&P mount.

here is a pic where I added extra lateral suppor to the top of the R&P mount


here is a pic of hte bottom where I futher added another support brace for lateral movement at the bottom. You can now see that the monting bracket is now 1 entire piece. The metal we used was 3/16" thick. Trust me...this thing ain't going anywhere now.

 

Wow In 25 years of C-3's i always thought that could happen and obviously it did. Thanks for the information as it could assist many of us in our thought of moding the steering system.

I would like to see one of our forum engineers who own and drive a C-3 com up with a nice rack system that woud work well. Even if they couldn't make kits, maybe one of them could builtd the plans.

I for one would gladly pay for the plans for a good system.

 

What does that mean??? ... "a nice rack system". That's kinda vague. Steeroids sells their rack for $1250; Total Control sells theirs for $2000. Total Controls is nicer - is it twice as good? The steeroids is a nice rack system - they buy their collection of parts and they mark it up 50%. It uses an $88 acdelco rack&pinion unit (of which ... thousands of the exact model are on cars and driving around everyday with nobody being killed. Total Control uses a rack from Woodward. Steeroids uses heim joints, and aluminum tie rods (I believe they are aluminum - maybe steel) which are used on circle track cars which are running wide open on the bumpiest of dirt tracks. It has nice rubber high pressure lines (industry standard). What else is in that kit??? Oh,the brackets! Well, anybody who has cut/welded/formed anything out of steel knows that it is easier to do it with thinner material. Easier translates to less time. Time translates to dollars. Dollars add up ... and then double it! And, anyone who has bought the steeroids kit, I assume has read through the steeroids literature. It's proudly displayed on their website. They list all the features & benefits of their product. They choose what they feel are the features that the largest segment of the market is looking for ... and of course, they try to stick it to their competitors to get the one-ups-man-ship and close a sale. You can't blame them for trying to make a buck! I sure don't. The problem though is that it is a one-size fits all; meaning the car that goes to the grocery store has the same brackets as the car that goes to the racetrack. Also, to beat the competition, the steeroids rack literature states that their rack is the lowest weight rack on the market. (Sorry to the thin skin members of the forum who might blame me for not quoting the exact words). But, they say that they have the lightest weight rack on the market. And, corvettes are racey and everybody wants lower weight. Now, you got a problem. You want to make a buck, beat the competition and you have a engineering dilemma. How strong/how light/how is it priced vs the competition? You can't buy an ACDELCO rack and grind a lot of weight off of it! You can't take a heim joint and grind it down to save weight. You can't grind down a tie rod and save weight. That would be nuts. So, why not make the three brackets out of the thinnest material you can that will satisfy the engineering stresses. Anybody can design a bridge but it takes an engineer to design it to carry the design load at the lowest cost. Some of the forum members who race their cars have said to build the brackets out of 3/16" or 1/4" plate. That sounds pretty nice. It sounds twice as nice but it may be overkill. But who cares, your only building one. Your not building 1000 of them. If you were building 1000 of them, you might want to take a look at that - why spend money you don't have to - you might price yourself out of the market. The person from SpeedDirect who refuses to sign his name and identify himself on the forum for liability reasons I assume (I'll refer to him as Mr. 1/8 is thick enough) tells us that if a system is designed correctly it will work correctly and that his system was designed correctly ... and maybe it is; and maybe it is for 99% of the people. What about the other 1%? The forum members who are driving their cars HARD, and have told us to make brackets out of 1/4 or 3/16 haven't gotten back on the forum to tell us - CORRECTION - 1/4 is no good - make 'em thicker ... so I assume 1/4 is the way to go or even 3/16. Bottom line is that the acdelco rack is probably ok, the heims, the rods, the hoses are all ok. Its the steeroid brackets. Its the implementation or so it seems to me (note: this is only my opinion - I have not run a stress analysis on the system. Now the question becomes: I know SpeedDirect has a nice CAD (line drawing program) but do they have a stress analysis program? Mr 1/8 is thick enough says his brackets are ok. And, he says that he has thousands of units installed. You know as well as I do that you can run your design through a stress analysis program and validate it for the foreseeable stresses (you really have got to understand what the car is doing and what kind of stresses the car will see ... or you drive your car to the supermarket 1000 times and then draw a statistical conclusion. "It drives nice". That's the part I don't understand; that no one talks about. What was the design criteria? (sunday driver or full tilt boogie?) If it was designed for the sunday driver - instead of the fast driver or instead of the race driver, will speeddirect tell us that so we can make an informed decision on what to do about it. Also, how was this bracket design analyzed? (analytically or seat of the pants).

 

 

Yeah! We're in perfect agreement. I wasn't sure whether you thought the off the shelf, box stock components were "nice enough"! I think they are - for me. I think they are plenty nice (especially when compared to the 1950/1940 design that's in there now). This will be a very satisfying project for me because I believe it will deliver a night/day performance increase that can be immediately realized.

Focusing on the brackets, there are 4 brackets that are needed:
1. Drivers side inside frame rail bracket (3 bolt holes)
2. Drivers side bottom frame rail bracket (4 bolt holes)
3. Center - tie rod bracket (2 bolt holes to the rack plus 2 bolt holes to the tie rod ends)
4. Passenger side frame rail bracket (2 bolt holes - I believe)

You can do this a few different ways.
1. Existing installation: Buy the #2 rev3 bracket from speeddirect
2. Existing installation: Use your speeddirect #1, 3 and 4 brackets and build your own #2 bracket and either bolt it together or weld it together.
3. New Installation: buy the 4 brackets from speeddirect - s/b ok with the new #2 gusset bracket (requires a very large checkbook)
4. New Installation: design and build your brackets from scratch (my choice). Use either 3/16 or 1/4 and build a 3 bracket or a 4 bracket design.

There is an issue with the rotation of the rack for purposes of minimizing the angle of the steering shaft to prevent binding so the early steeroids brackets may not make sense at this point (trial fit and test - and repeat). There is an issue with positioning of the inner tie rod heim joints to minimize bump steer (keeps me up at night). There is an issue with thickness and rigidity of the brackets to prevent flexing (personal choice for a one-off system). There is an issue with low speed force into the steering wheel (personal choice - consumers like a light feel); there is an issue as to the steering wheel feel at high speed (drivers like a not-so-light feel ... I'll call it road feel). Steering wheel feel is determined by the power steering pump pressure/volume.

At this point before building anything, I've decided to go generally with a scratch built, 3/16 thick, 4 bracket (bolt together 1 & 2) system using off the shelf ACDELCO 2.5 turn rack, 5/8 heimed, aluminum tie roded, ss aftermarket u-jointed and aftermarket PS pumped. Component cost minus labor will probably be around half the price of the steeroids unit. Assuming the brackets are designed correctly (line up and fit, no bump steer, where 3/16 provides enough rigidity), this system will deliver quick light steering and a great road feel at a very reasonable cost. My design goals are: safety, ease of installation, quick light steering, great road feel at a reasonable cost.

 

Tim Ko,

You seem to have a solid solution and I like your plan. Aer you one of the engineers I was trying to seek out?

In reading about the rack kits; I see that the R&P is from a Grand Am. Is that correct? Do you (or anyone) know if there is a rack that is better for this mod. I'm thinking of installing a mod that I can bolt in, drive for a while, and see if I am happy with it. If it all checks out I many weld the brackets in perimantly when the engine comes out.

What is thought about the additional bracing that the flaiming riveer design offers?

 

I have Manual and am going with the Flaming River setup. Seems like a better design for less $ to me.

 

Hello FatCat,

Well, I first have to say that it is not my solution. I searched and read every post I could find on the forum and found 4 or 5 people with valid working tested solutions. I drew some conclusions for myself and I posted it above. But, I have to give credit to all the previous posts. I did not design the solution. I did not identify the problems - I summarized it. I am doing my due diligence and I suggest everybody does. I would suggest that you spend 10 hrs searching and reading all the past posts on the forum. Then we all can compare notes and go from there. That's the purpose of the forum.

Yes, I am a degreed engineer. But I am not a Steering Bracket Design Engineer. I am not a Steering Bracket Production Engineer, nor a Steering Bracket Welding Engineer. I am not a rack and pinion systmes engineer; I am not a bushing engineer; I don't work with fluid dynamics simuilations, etc - I never worked in the auto industry. This is a hobby for me. I have a car and I need to improve it. I am doing my due diligence. ACDELCO engineered the rack. Etc.

These systems are a collection of off the shelf parts. Many others on the forum have figured out (not engineered) what parts are required. This is a component selection, component sourcing question. Where can I get the gm rack for the least amount of money the soonest - and then tradeoff price vs availability. I can tell you that I have been trying for the last two weeks to collect all the parts and its taking a lot of time to find sources and shop prices. If you go to Flaming River or SpeedDirect, as I said, you write one check and you get one box - you are buying convenience and you are paying a nice premium for that convenience. I can't afford the premium. I'm installing other systems in my car and I'd rather spend the extra money getting hardparts.

There was nothing for me to be gained by looking at the Flaming River brackets. So, I don't know what your talking about. You simply need a rigid mount that won't flex. Scroll up and you will see one. Carp did it on his bracket. Other forum members have also. I'm sure flaming river has done it and Total Control has done it. So, what's the bid deal. Its not like juggling 8 *****. It's like juggling 3 ***** - anybody can do 3. It will take 10 minutes after you figure out what the problem is.

Personally, I wouldn't weld the brackets to the frame. Just use the existing holes and grade8 bolts.

 

I personally believe in strength. I built a rack and pinion a few years ago using the Grand Am rack.
I used 1/4" plate and I still put in two large stiffening ribs and a angle support to make it rock solid.

I did have an issue with it when I slid into a curb a year ago. I bent the drivers side bracket a little.
But I also bent the wheel,the lower A-Arm mount and the Lower A-Arm shaft. So it was not the weakest link. But I still added a new support to the bracket where it bent.

There are pics on my homepage;
http://www.corvetteforum.net/c3/427v8/


Keith

 

Hello Mako,

Well, flaming river is priced lower. Isn't it something like 1050 or 25% less. That's significant.

I'm curious about two things. What does flaming river have that speeddirect or vbp doesn't have that you think gives them a better design? And secondly, are you sure that the flaming river kit has all the parts that the steeroids kit has (or do they leave something out).

According to the steeroids lit, the flaming river design is heavier. Why is that? Do you know? It may be that they sell the same parts and market it at a reduced cost to get a toe hold in the market?

 

Keith,
Thanks for posting all that information. I've been reading it over for the last couple weeks. It really helped me a lot.

Question: What size u-joint do you use on the grand am rack? Is it a 17DD? And, did you use a 3/4DD intermediate shaft or a 3/4splined shaft and what you recommend?
Thanks again.
Tim

 

Oh I really don't remember the size. It should be in the archives...
I did use DD shafting, I also used 2 u-joints, but it would have been just fine to use a double joint.

 

It is Manual only which is a disadvantage to some. The mounting system is a one piece cradle and looks much stronger. Both sides are tied together with stiffeners welded in. Here is a link.http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cf...rod/prd344.htm

 

Tim Ko,

Well I can understand why the vender was so tight with you in an earlier reply. You are difficult to communicate with. I do not see what I could have said that causes you to leap into your dissertations’ of setting someone straight. I'm not here to present argument with you or anyone else. What gives you the right to tell me or any other member not to ask questions and to review all of the treads on a subject? If you review my original replies to this thread I never directed my question to just you. You sir found it to be your obligation to respond because you could not understand what I had asked and obviously had your feelings hurt.

 

Thats good. Start off with an insult and a vague statement - "tight"!The vendor wasn't tight - he is a very arrogant engineer (I assume) who designed a bracket to mate to a milled flat surface instead of a welded frame from a production car of the 60's. He did not take into account the product he was enhancing. He designed the bracket without consideration of the quality control from the frame welding shop. He did not have that data and he went forward anyway. So, that gap in the data caused a weak joint, movement, stress and eventually a failure. He has corrected it. Good for him. It only took him a week to get the new brackets to carp - twice. Now everybody including you has a question and he has not addressed those questions to the satisfaction of many forum members. So, now your asking questions.

Personally, you are so vague in your thinking that its impossible to reply. You want a nice system. You want an engineer. How do you respond to something like that??? My response was RTFM. When all else fails, read the book. I'm sorry you had a problem with that. If you are a 99%'er, buy the steeroids. It's new and improved. If you want manual r&p, buy the flaming river. If you need the extra 1% like 427V8 then do your homework like he did. He paid a lot for that extra 1%. I bet he spent hours of time and effort into that solution. Look at all the photos and video that carp posted. Did you look at all that? As to 427V8, you can read it just like I did ... he hit a curb, the wheel broke and the bracket bent slightly. That is one heck of a testimonial. What do you think would have happened with the early steeroid bracket that didn't have a brace or the new steeroid improved bracket with the 1/8" thick brace. Tell us what you think about that. Personally, I think its better that your wheels don't fall off if you hit something hard. So, I'm rethinking the 3/16 in favor of 1/4.

But yes, I felt an obligation to respond because I have benefitted greatly from reading through the forum archives and posts. And, I suggest you do the same. I'm sorry you have a problem with that recommendation. The people who have posted on this topic did so years earlier and I was trying to give them a break - it's old news to them. I tried to synthesize what I read to save the other guys some time. Apparently, you are the one who had his feelings hurt. I'm sorry for that - let's wait and see who jumps in to help with your questions. ... a rack and pinion steering bracket design engineer ... I think you gotta call speeddirect. They do that kinda stuff as a business. Maybe if you define your application better - what tires, what speed, what racetrack, how many lateral G's ... someone could either put together a data collection system and instrument it and measure the forces on the wheels, and steering system exactly and then back into a bracket design for you that has plenty of margin per your requirement and then sell you the design for $20. BTW, am I way off? How much do you want to pay for the bracket design? You never said. It was unclear. Please clarify what you want to spend and I'm sure an engineer will step up. Good luck.

 

Thank you Mako. I see what you mean. I can see why it weighs more and its probably less expensive to manufacture.

 

Ok, I call uncle

 

I think he just like to argue . I found this post from the previous Steeroids thread. Personally, I've never heard of Corvettes jumping lanes with stock power steering before. Think I might have (like exploding Pinto gas tanks). But it's new news to me. There's like 300,000 C3's in the world. He got the one that came possesed.

and Tim_Ko, I see you are one of those people who has to have the last word. So when I dont respond to your next response, you'll know why. I want your arm chair engineering and Steeroids bashing to end.

 

Trust me, I can tell you from having gone thru it twice that this is no myth. When it's your C3 that pulls this stunt, those seemingly insignificant odds instantly turn into 100% involvement, up close and personal. The only other time I've had that same sudden white knuckle, sick-sweat, copper taste in my mouth, oh $#!+ feeling was from the two suspension failures I've experienced on track, both big hits that wrote off cars (not Vettes).