Z-man

If a big cam and high idle speed affects your braking, you have power brakes - not manual brakes. Manual brakes will stop the car even if the engine falls out...

Same here - I can easily lock all four wheels up by stepping on the brake.

HamadUP

I had a manual brakes since I got the car and I just shifted to hydroboost few day ago, let me tell you that its the BEST thing I've ever done to a car! .. The feel is really superior to what I used to have. I'm not saying the manual brakes were not good, I was able to lock the wheels and stop the car just as the same distance, but with MUCH more leg effort. I know I would get used to that effort (and its a good chance to do some leg muscle work out!), but when you use another power-braked daily driver car and all of a sudden drive a manual brakes, that creates some kind of grey area where you just underestimate the force needed to stop the car with in the distance in front of you! .. and that's the very reason I decided to convert to HB, I almost had an accident a couple times because of that, and one time I hit another car in front of me setting in a traffic (thank god nothing happened to both cars) because I wasn't applying enough pressure on the brake pedal while the RPM was around 900-1000 and I was reading some papers, I was really pissed-off because of that, and it was the point that I decided to go for a power assisted brakes.

HB is good if you are used to power assisted brakes, it even maybe a safety factor in that matter, but if you only use manual brake cars, then you will just get used to the pressure needed and will be just fine.

Taijutsu

No matter what else I do, I still need to get the HB recharged.
Any ideas on who could do this properly? This isn't rocket science, but it needs to be done right! Any help out there? TIA

Ricisan

wcsinx

The vast majority of brake woes people have with C3s have nothing to do with the design of the brakes. Pop the hood on just about any brand new car and guess what you'll see. That's right a vacuum booster.

My 33 year old brakes were toe-touch good and could slide me to halt easily. And that was WITH leaky calipers.

Theiskell

You are correct on all accounts.
Hamadup said it better than I could..My manual breaks worked well and I could lock all 4 wheels up also. I had a good solid pedal and I do know how to bleed breaks so that was not the problem. If you guys don’t like modding that’s fine, but Hydroboost is worth the time, money and effort to do. You should drive a C3 that had the conversion done and then comment. Don’t be a hater

Sorry for us hijacking your thread…I am not sure on this question, but I wouldn’t think it would be something you could get done at your local garage. Worst case you can use the one you have for a core at the local auto parts store. Then it would only be around a 100.00 and you would have a new one.

GDaina

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater, I'm just trying to figure out what the advantage HB has over manual, since HB uses the same calipers, rotors. Is the stopping distance shorter? Common sense tells me no.

Theiskell

If I or anyone else told you the stopping distance was shorter, they or I would be lying. It’s the feel of the break pedal that is different. That’s what I didn’t like with the manual breaks. Like Hamadup said, your daily driver feels a certain way, then you jump in the Vette and yuck! Now I jump in the Vette and the pedal feels better than my daily driver. That’s the difference, it makes “my” driving experience better.

442olds

The nitrogen is mostly likely still there. You said you spun off the belt, you probably didn't notice it until you applied the brakes the second time. At that point your brakes should have felt like a rock. You only get one maybe two shots of brake boost from the nitrogen and then its all manual braking. I wouldn't worry about the nitorgen until you can get the system filled back up with power steering fluid. Once the system is up and running, then shut the engine off and tap the brakes, it should act like it does with the engine running. Start the engine back up and let the system repressurize and your good to go.

If the nitorgen turelly did leak out, you pretty much have to get a replacement HB unit as there is no fill valve for the nitrogen can.

Gordonm

Stopping distance is the same. The pedal feel as others have said is what I was after. Running around an autoX where braking is done often I found I was applying to much effort into braking and not enough into driving. Now I can really feel the pedal and to really bring it down in a hurry I just rest my foot on the pedal. I did not mind the manual brakes at all I just have a better feel for the car with the HB.

Taijutsu

I just got off phone w/brake shop. My big concern is NOT having any manual brakes when the PS belt blew off. I should have some brake even w/o nitrogen back up. I will keep everyone informed as I know more.

Ricisan

HamadUP

I really doubt that yours need a recharge. When I first installed mine, it seemed that when I shut off the engine the pedal will get hard right away, but when I drove the car for few 10s of miles, I noticed that I could get at least two assisted pedals after shutting the engine off. After all, the HB needs a few 10s of miles to settle down and act normally, that exactly happened to me.

HamadUP

Since I used both on the same car, I totally agree with you, but you have to include the extra time needed for putting the extra pressure on the pedal, these tens of seconds equal to tens of feet, it could be the difference between hitting the car in front of you and just stopping behind it.

mrvette

EXACTLY ....the diff between say pedal travel of say 2" and a hard stop with confidence you can count on, vs some damn sloppy sucky vacuum 'assist' thing you basically can't just like every other vacuum brake car I have driven over the decades....

when thinking about it, it HAS to make sense...whatever the guys had to do to make vacuum suck enough to assist in braking....it is still air pressure rushing into the vacuum of the engine that helps actuate the brakes....simple idea...BUT

air is obviously compressible, and so it is trying to push a liquid through a line and create friction....well, trying to compress air into what is essentially a solid and use that to stop a car has some basic physics complications....which is why that pedal goes to the floor and you luck to be able to slide four....

I like the NON compressible HB oil setup driving that m/cyl so it's MY FOOT against that hopefully non moving system with assist into the calipers...and STOP NOW, damnit....

rocket science 101, high school physics grade 10....

GDaina

different strokes for different folks...I can see the point with vacuum assist, but my mechanical brakes...that's an a hard sell since there is no distinct advantage other then how the pedal feels....

mrvette

Sorry man, A to B direct comparo....when I installed my system...the old vacuum system went nearly to the floor with little to NO room to spare...I could easily slam it to the limit..hard stop somewhere....

but with HB I have about 1/2 or less of the pedal movement and it's a hard lock on the brakes, IF I really push HARD, with engine running, I can feel the new rubber hoses expanding, and if hard enough I can force it to the floor, with maybe 15X the effort....

same master cyl, unbroken lines done A-B direct I will take HB...easy..

Vogie

Quick comment on hydraulic accumulators (see the avitar). If the pressure is measured on the hydraulic fluid side, the pressure will be zero when you loose fluid or all fluid pressure. If the pressure is measured on the nitrogen side the accumulator pressure will be present when the fluid is gone or the fluid pressure is zero. Good luck.

mrvette

So you saying is a pressure line from pump to HB manages to fail, there are no brakes?? or the line from HB to steering...

comethink of it, don't much matter which line, system is evacuated almost instantly....

I think somehow GM took that into account...IMO, not a issue...

course I could pull a line and see....

jerome1979

with manual brake you can stop as shorter as assist brake, in theory with same caliper disk pad tires !!!!. but manual brake need more legs efforts and when you push with all your foce the brake pedal you can't feel wheel lock so assist brake keep your feeling more sharp and you can regulate you brake to prevent wheel lock.

DaJesterMan

While your brake pads, calipers, and rotors are all the same, doesn't the amount of force your brake system applies on the calipers and how tightly they squeeze the rotors vary between HB and manual? With HB, the brakes are applied almost instantly where with manual, your leg has to directly apply the force (with mechanical advantage). Also, isn't there a difference in the amount of force someone's leg can apply versus a hydraulic cylinder? Not sure of the answer, but it makes sense in my head... haha

-ks

wcsinx

But still, Gene, you're not pushing against air. You're pushing steel rods that ultimately mate to a hydraulic cylinder. Foot -> Pedal -> Push Rods -> Piston -> Fluid ... that order doesn't change regardless of if you have manual, vacuum, or hydroboost brakes. And if you were able to bottom out your pedal when you still had vacuum assist then you had something else wrong. There's no way I can bottom out my pedal. I'll smash myself through the back of the seat before that pedal bottoms out. And I can honesly lock all 4 wheels up with my big toe. Hell if I didn't get 10 mpg, I'd drive up to Jax and let you take it for a spin.