Race Car won't start...
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Why would the plugs produce a spark when outside and not when inside the block??
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
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From: Dayton, Ohio
I agree that this sounds like the problem.. I'll probably end up pulling the distributor again on the weekend and setting it to #1. The way I usually do that it to take the drivers side valve cover off, bring the balancer to ZERO and make sure that the #1 valves are closed (that way I'm sure that I'm not 180 degrees off). Then I set the distributors rotor to #1 and try cranking it. However, won't have time to do that during the week.. WIll have to wait for the weekend..
Good Luck
Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 645
Likes: 1
From: Hayward Wi
so a bad plug or wire might show good outside of a engine but when its in a cylinder it might do nothing at all. i have actualy see this happen to.. it it is realy interesting and hard thing to diagnose to.
Ryan
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
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From: Florida
air resists electricity the more of it you have the more it resists it. thats why there is a need for alot of volts for ignition in engines.
so a bad plug or wire might show good outside of a engine but when its in a cylinder it might do nothing at all. i have actualy see this happen to.. it it is realy interesting and hard thing to diagnose to.
Ryan
so a bad plug or wire might show good outside of a engine but when its in a cylinder it might do nothing at all. i have actualy see this happen to.. it it is realy interesting and hard thing to diagnose to.
Ryan
Back in the late 60's I had a metal box made by Champion, about 8" x 8" x 8", that you put air pressure to, pluged in a power cord, installed a plug into the adapter, pressed a button, and you could watch the plug fire under compression thru a little window, and always it was a lesser spark. Also had another Champion box that you put a plug and compressed air into, wiggled it around a little and it would sandblast the plug.
You can also connect a Sun Scope and see if the plug under compression is firing and by how much. (I know that doesn't help at home).
Doubtfull that all 8 plugs are dead under compression, but it certainly wouldn't rule out a failing coil.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 645
Likes: 1
From: Hayward Wi
Basically, the resistance increases as the pressure increases and depending on the condition of the ign system as a whole all the way down to the plug gaps, the spark may not jump the gap at all.
Back in the late 60's I had a metal box made by Champion, about 8" x 8" x 8", that you put air pressure to, pluged in a power cord, installed a plug into the adapter, pressed a button, and you could watch the plug fire under compression thru a little window, and always it was a lesser spark. Also had another Champion box that you put a plug and compressed air into, wiggled it around a little and it would sandblast the plug.
You can also connect a Sun Scope and see if the plug under compression is firing and by how much. (I know that doesn't help at home).
Doubtfull that all 8 plugs are dead under compression, but it certainly wouldn't rule out a failing coil.
Back in the late 60's I had a metal box made by Champion, about 8" x 8" x 8", that you put air pressure to, pluged in a power cord, installed a plug into the adapter, pressed a button, and you could watch the plug fire under compression thru a little window, and always it was a lesser spark. Also had another Champion box that you put a plug and compressed air into, wiggled it around a little and it would sandblast the plug.
You can also connect a Sun Scope and see if the plug under compression is firing and by how much. (I know that doesn't help at home).
Doubtfull that all 8 plugs are dead under compression, but it certainly wouldn't rule out a failing coil.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,123
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From: Gladstone MO
C3 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
I'm guessing you have 1/16 rings? Give each cylinder a little shot of oil, crank it over with the plugs out to spread the oil around, then put the plugs in and try it. Not much face area on the rings, and setting for a long time they might have lost some seal to the cylinder walls.
I've seen guys wear out a starter on a new engine after they washed the oil off the cylinders trying to start it. A shot of oil in each hole and fires right up,
I've seen guys wear out a starter on a new engine after they washed the oil off the cylinders trying to start it. A shot of oil in each hole and fires right up,
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
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Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
air resists electricity the more of it you have the more it resists it. thats why there is a need for alot of volts for ignition in engines.
so a bad plug or wire might show good outside of a engine but when its in a cylinder it might do nothing at all. i have actualy see this happen to.. it it is realy interesting and hard thing to diagnose to.
Ryan
so a bad plug or wire might show good outside of a engine but when its in a cylinder it might do nothing at all. i have actualy see this happen to.. it it is realy interesting and hard thing to diagnose to.
Ryan
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
That's a interesting method.. However, taking valve covers off on my engine is very simple.. Got 4 wing nuts that I need to remove and then just lift off the cover.. Nothing in the way..
I remember working on my '92 and it took hours to get the valve covers off as some of the emissions crap ran on top (some kind of tube that would run to the catalytic converter to warm it up) and it took a long time to get all the crap out of the way..
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
I'm guessing you have 1/16 rings? Give each cylinder a little shot of oil, crank it over with the plugs out to spread the oil around, then put the plugs in and try it. Not much face area on the rings, and setting for a long time they might have lost some seal to the cylinder walls.
I've seen guys wear out a starter on a new engine after they washed the oil off the cylinders trying to start it. A shot of oil in each hole and fires right up,
I've seen guys wear out a starter on a new engine after they washed the oil off the cylinders trying to start it. A shot of oil in each hole and fires right up,
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,486
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From: Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin
When I sold this car in the middle of winter to a couple of Canadians. I told them it was hard to start in cold weather and that if it didn't fire right off, then disconnect the fuel pump (I had a quick disconnect) as if it floods it would then never start until you put new plugs in it. I drove it on the trailer for them out of my heated garage. Once they got it back to Canada, It took them 3 weeks to get it started, they wouldn't believe me the race gas would not light in an unheated garage in the middle of winter in Canada that it must be something wrong with the electronics etc. They finally flushed the motor and put street gas in with a new set of plugs and it started right up.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
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From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Today, I squirted a little oil in all 8 cylinders and cleaned all the plugs. Then I made sure that the timing was correct (brought balancer to zero and checked that #1 was closed and rotor pointed to #1).
Tried starting again with no success.. Right now, I have NGK #8 racing plugs in the car but I'm going to get some #6 street plugs to see if that will help.. Temperature is hot and steamy today (90's and high humidity), so that can't be the problem.
Tried starting again with no success.. Right now, I have NGK #8 racing plugs in the car but I'm going to get some #6 street plugs to see if that will help.. Temperature is hot and steamy today (90's and high humidity), so that can't be the problem.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Lakeland, FL
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St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
I'm running a MSD Billet Pro Ignition with a MSD 6AL box, a MSD retard system (for nitrous), a MSD window switch (for nitrous too) and a 2-step rev liminter (MSD also). The coil is a MSD blaster coil.
Tried another thing today.. Had a new set of #8 NGK's laying around, so I swapped out the old #8's and no success..
Tried another thing today.. Had a new set of #8 NGK's laying around, so I swapped out the old #8's and no success..
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Today, I squirted a little oil in all 8 cylinders and cleaned all the plugs. Then I made sure that the timing was correct (brought balancer to zero and checked that #1 was closed and rotor pointed to #1).
Tried starting again with no success.. Right now, I have NGK #8 racing plugs in the car but I'm going to get some #6 street plugs to see if that will help.. Temperature is hot and steamy today (90's and high humidity), so that can't be the problem.
Tried starting again with no success.. Right now, I have NGK #8 racing plugs in the car but I'm going to get some #6 street plugs to see if that will help.. Temperature is hot and steamy today (90's and high humidity), so that can't be the problem.
When I put my motor back together after the distributor is out I spin the motor to the 0 deg. mark on the balancer and set my distributor to point after the #1 tower in a clockwise rotation, my initial is about 15deg. If it was 0 like you have described mine wouldn't start either.
Turn your distributor counter clockwise a little to advance the timing, if that's the problem it will start
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
That means you have 0 advance and it probably won't start like that, what is you initial advance or what is your advance if you have it locked in. That is how far past the #1 tower you want the rotor to be.
When I put my motor back together after the distributor is out I spin the motor to the 0 deg. mark on the balancer and set my distributor to point after the #1 tower in a clockwise rotation, my initial is about 15deg. If it was 0 like you have described mine wouldn't start either.
Turn your distributor counter clockwise a little to advance the timing, if that's the problem it will start
When I put my motor back together after the distributor is out I spin the motor to the 0 deg. mark on the balancer and set my distributor to point after the #1 tower in a clockwise rotation, my initial is about 15deg. If it was 0 like you have described mine wouldn't start either.
Turn your distributor counter clockwise a little to advance the timing, if that's the problem it will start
Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 645
Likes: 1
From: Hayward Wi
might try getting a new set of plug wires? would it hurt to try starting it on regular 92 octane gas to get to fire off?
Last edited by PuddleJumper; Sep 26, 2010 at 09:54 PM. Reason: didnt add wires to plug
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Valrico Florida
MSD publishes a book with all their systems, install instructions, and wiring diagrams. I'd start with just the distributor, 6AL, coil and set the basic timing. I think you must have something going on with the retard box, rev limit, and/or window switch. Good luck.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
I'm running a MSD Billet Pro Ignition with a MSD 6AL box, a MSD retard system (for nitrous), a MSD window switch (for nitrous too) and a 2-step rev liminter (MSD also). The coil is a MSD blaster coil.
Tried another thing today.. Had a new set of #8 NGK's laying around, so I swapped out the old #8's and no success..
Tried another thing today.. Had a new set of #8 NGK's laying around, so I swapped out the old #8's and no success..
With all your comp. cam, need for timing. I know you said you turned the dist. counterclockwise manualy to advance timing. Is it possible even though you did that. This MSD retard went severly bad is keeping you badly retarded on timing regardless what your trying to do at the dist. I don't know anything about one these retard deals but after reading all these posts it just sounds like something is keeping you badly retarded timing. adjustable camshaft sprocket slipped if that can happen with one.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Sep 27, 2010 at 03:42 AM.