Also consider any water in the crankcase will be contaminated and that raises its boiling point.

Coolant and water temperatures are not the same.

 

I give up. Not everybody took physics in high school I guess.

 

I recommend every one should drain out all coolant and dino engine oil,
refill crankcase with 0 weight synthetic, disconnect wires to temperature gauge and run as normal!
Good advise or what?

 

If there's coolant in the oil pan, high or low running temps won't matter much. The coolant won't evaporate.

 

Agreed.

I'm still waiting on some real test data showing just how much water gets into the oil of a "regularly driven" vehicle.

A good follow-up would be real test data showing how much water was evaporated from the oil at 212*F that would not evaporate from the oil when it was running at a temperature below 212*F.

 

My point is that a water temperature gauge and oil temperature gauge won't read the same on a engine running at operating temperature.

 

Did you read any of the posts above quoting actual oil temps?

 

Notice what the EPA has to say at this link:

Water contamination of engine oil is usually caused by condensation in the crankcase. Large amounts of water contribute to formation of metal-corroding acids that can damage pistons, rings, and
the liner. Oil performance is affected when its water contentexceeds 0.3 percent.

 

Yes, but how accurate are engine oil temperature gauges in cars? My coolant temperature gauge in my '77 Corvette is off by around 10 degrees.

 

So what???

In what conditions does the water content exceed 0.3%????

You keep rattling on about how too much water in the oil is harmful. Big deal, that should be easy for everyone to understand. What you need to do is PROVE that harmful amounts of water get into the oil.

 

You magically left this part out: "Water contamination of engine oil is usually caused by condensation in the crankcase." Can you prove it does not?

 

I didn't leave any part out. All I'm saying is I don't believe you.

You're the one making the claims and the one making the claims needs to provide proof. So, quit being weaselly when the going gets tough and prove that a car sitting overnight has damaging levels of water in it by morning. Then, prove that the water doesn't evaporate until the oil reaches 212*F.

 

I don't know about of any of you guys but I am more concerned about by-products of combustion causing the majority of contamination to oil than H20 buildup.

 

As long as people cling to the misconception that moisture collects on hot surfaces as they cool there's no hope of progress.

Moisture in a crankcase is a byproduct of combustion ONLY and accumulates if the engine is not run long enough to allow it to evaporate. What's so difficult to understand?

 

Should I believe you or the EPA? "Water contamination of engine oil is usually caused by condensation in the crankcase."

 

Take your choice, we're both saying the same thing. Condensation of water vapour introduced as a byproduct of combustion.

 

I see I still have some work to do.

From here:

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ne-durability/

is this,..

"Water and low oil temperatures (conspire to) significantly increase the propensity to rust. Engines fired up infrequently generate a tremendous amount of condensation. If the engine isn’t allowed to completely warm up, this condensation remains inside the engine. Water will not burn off until the internal engine temperature (oil temperature) reaches 212 degrees F. This water will then attack any surface which isn’t adequately protected by either an oil film..."

From here:

http://www.advancedautomaintenance.c...background.htm

is this,..

"Water finds its way into the engine oil by being blown past the piston rings from the combustion chambers as a by-product of the combustion of the fuel/air mixture inside the combustion chambers. Water also forms inside the engine by way of condensation. When the engine is turned off and eventually cools, humidity in the air inside the engine condenses on the cold metal surfaces of the engine components as droplets of water, provided that the prevailing outside ambient temperature is low enough so that the engine becomes sufficiently cool. Therefore more condensation occurs during the colder months of the year such as during winter.

Water is a menace to engine oil because it dilutes its ability to lubricate the engine components and because it has the ability to combine with other contaminants in the oil to form acids which are corrode the metal engine components, as well as non-metal seals and gaskets.

...Inside the engine, it (nitrogen, another byproduct of blowby) can combine with water that is already in the oil to form nitric acid, which is a highly corrosive acid. This acid has the ability to corrode the surfaces of metal engine components and to eat away at non-metal gaskets and seals inside the engine, increasing the likelihood of oil leaks."

From here:

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...atters-feature

is this,..

"Water gets into the crankcase through condensation and blowby from the combustion chambers. Fortunately, small quantities of water evaporate from the crankcase as the engine warms up and the oil temperature gets above 212 degrees, which it does after a few minutes on a freeway."

From here:

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-st...-you-need-one/

is this,..

"But when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase."

From here:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/oil_tech/

is this,..

"...for every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also creates a pound of water. Some of this water will eventually end up in the oil pan. If the engine rarely sees (oil) sump temperatures that exceed 212 degrees F (water's boiling point), the water quickly mixes with another combustion byproduct--sulfur--to create acids that can eventually eat bearings,.."

From here:

http://www.auto-rx.com/what-is-sludg...y-engine.shtml

is this,..

"Water gets into your crankcase typically through condensation or in exhaust gases that escape past the piston rings. The engine’s job is to get rid of this moisture by operating at sufficiently high temperatures. However, all engines operate periodically at low temperatures and experience some water contamination. When this occurs, water becomes emulsified, meaning it is absorbed by the oil,.."

From here:

http://what-when-how.com/automobile/...on-automobile/

is this,..

"The most common type of (oil) contamination, however, is from the blow-by gases, which work their way past the piston and rings. If crankcase ventilation is poor and the engine is cool, blow-by gases remain in the crankcase and mix with the oil. The constitutes of blow-by gas primarily are partially burned fuel and water vapour. The highly acidic water formed due to combustion causes rusting and corrosion"

From here:

http://saeeng.saejournals.org/content/4/1/175.abstract

is this,..

"At engine oil temperatures below 100°C (100c = 212f) the water from the blow-by condensates and dilutes the engine oil in the oil pan which negatively affects engine wear. Therefore engine oil temperatures above 100°C are desirable to minimize engine wear through blow by condensate."

From here:

http://www.maintenanceresources.com/...lysis/oa-m.htm

is this,..

"Humid air entering oil compartments will often cause moisture condensation on the walls and ceilings above the oil level. Frequent temperature change cycles may greatly increase the rate of condensation. Eventually the condensation will coalesce and run down the casing (crankcase) walls,..

and this,..

"Low jacket-water (coolant) temperature and intermittent operation may prevent the water from easily vaporizing out of the oil"

From here:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2001...engine-sludge/

is this,..

"...the oil temperature is high enough to boil off and extract all the water and other volatile contaminants via the PCV system."

From here:

http://www.askamechanic.info/askamec...t/view/168/62/

is this,..

"Engines make a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel they burn, and while most of that goes out the tail pipe, some of it goes past the rings into the crankcase with the inevitable blow-by. If the engine is running too cool, the water in the blow-by tends to condense and mix with the oil and form sludge. On an engine that is running the correct temperature, the PCV system eliminates the water as vapor."

----------------

I could post 200 more links that say the same thing, but I'll ask, where are we now?

1) Is it still thought, by a few, that water in the oil isn't a problem that's to be mitigated?

2) Is it still thought, by a few, that engine oil need not reach 212f (if so, I can forward a dozen docs on evaporation rates of emulsified water, water-in-oil emulsion, that 'the few' won't like)

 

Have you got a single link to actual test data that proves water remains in the oil until the oil reaches 212*F?

You should also be able to find something that proves how much water is introduced into the oil as an engine operates. Something to back-up that claim you just posted about how water condensates into the oil at any oil temperature below 100*C.

 

lion,..did you not read from any of the above posted links? There are about 25 going back to the first page.

I tell you what lion,..do your own homework,..and start with the google search: "water-in-oil emulsion, evaporation rates, temperature" and see what you can learn. You'll be very disappointed (apparently) to learn the rate of water removal (evaporation vs. vaporization) from emulsified water (in-oil) at 190f (or whatever) vs. 212f.

First you'll learn that liquid water is heavier than oil and water will sink to the bottom of the sump making evaporation almost non-existent in state. Secondly, water, once mixed with the oil on a running engine, converts to harmful compounds instead of 'evaporating'. (Again, read from any one of the 25 links posted above to learn about the many harmful compounds).

Please report your findings on emulsion/evaporation rates. Here's a good place to start: www.google.com

If you're unable to find anything, I'll help you out.

 

Go for it. Actual test data on a running engine that proves how much water remains in the engine as it runs at different oil temperatures. Say, 190* vs 200* vs 212* continually. Or, a comparison of how quickly the oil degrades if it is run at those different temperatures would also do. Come on, there must be 100's of studies on this if the engine oil must reach 100*C on a regular basis to maintain the health of the engine. How quickly must the oil reach 100*C to continue being safe to use? What percentage of the time can you get away with running the oil <100*C and still be safe? How much sooner must the oil be changed when it only reaches 160* or 170* or 180* or 190* vs this magical 212*? If your claims are true then this stuff ~must~ be easy to find.


Read oil life monitor patents 4,742,476, 4,847,768 and 6,327,900. GM considers about 75*C as the lower limit for oil temperature de-rating (the diesel system even uses 50*C). I also didn't see any mention of ensuring the oil reaches 100*C when being monitored. GM spent millions testing engines under different oil conditions to develop these oil life monitor systems. Even after the development and refinements of the OLM system, GM continues to built millions and millions of cars without installing any type of system to ensure the oil reaches >100*C. This certainly points to them not finding any cause to believe the oil must reach 100*C to get rid of moisture.