Proper engine temps for non emission engine
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
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From: South Western Ontario
Oh well, at least 75% of the people who have commented on the GM patents can grasp then well enough to have an understanding of what the information means. Hint to help the other 25% understand - you have to look at figures 2 and 3 (or fig. 4 in the last patent) and then read the text until you understand what those figures represent. The single "smoking gun" sentence does not exist.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,478
Likes: 254
From: Downers Grove Illinois
OK . lake water enters through hull intake, enters raw water pump,then feeds t stat housing which acts also as a bypass to exhaust manifolds when stat is closed, leaves housing into manifolds and circulation pump, circulation pump into engine and out of stat to manifolds when stat open. Sorry best I can describe.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
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For fun, I lurked over on the C5 and C6 sections looking for observations about oil temps. If there's anybody here who thinks that 100*C is a mandatory minimum, you're wasting your time here. Seems that you've got work cut out for you trying to tell those guys they've got to up their oils temps by a LARGE margin. Best be on your way. Good luck.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,478
Likes: 254
From: Downers Grove Illinois
For fun, I lurked over on the C5 and C6 sections looking for observations about oil temps. If there's anybody here who thinks that 100*C is a mandatory minimum, you're wasting your time here. Seems that you've got work cut out for you trying to tell those guys they've got to up their oils temps by a LARGE margin. Best be on your way. Good luck.
I am seeing applications where oil temps are not expected/engineered to normally reach the 100*C mark (especially the marine application mentioned earlier). I haven't figured out the pattern yet. Many years back I changed my thermostat on an old Dodge 360 engine from 180 to 160*F and the A/C worked great, but the heat was bad. I read up on thermostat temperatures and their affect on street engines. At that time the consensus was that at the 160 degree mark the engine wear rate was double what it was at 180*F. I changed my thermostat back and left it that way. This was in the 70's so I would really like to know if this has changed and if so what led to these changes. Is it a matter of the rings/pistons designed for lower operating temperatures? Could it be better oil additive packages than what we had in the 70's. Is it better tolerances in the engines than previous engines? It would be good to see something definitive on this.
Race Director
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I didn't see anything where their temps are a large margin below 100*C. Here is a link I found about normal C5 temps.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2014
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From: Downers Grove Illinois
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
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From: Butler Pa
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: RI, Now Franklin/Nashville TN
Not sure where this magic number comes from concerning oil temperature but for street driven vehicles, the oil temp will rarely get over 200 degrees. My 78 L-82 has an 81/82 oil temp gauge that I put in 25 years ago in place of the clock and the temp runs about 160-175. For my 10 Z06, the oil temp has never gone over 185 on the hottest of days. My 73 Nova SS also had an oil temp gauge that I installed and NEVER went over 200 degrees. There are 3 examples of oil temp in 3 different cars over 30 years….
Race Director
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There's tons of examples on C5/C6 where they never see oil temps reaching 200. Some run continuously at 140-150.
I bet there's more than a few of those guys lurking on this thread killing themselves laughing at the '212 or die stuff'.
I bet there's more than a few of those guys lurking on this thread killing themselves laughing at the '212 or die stuff'.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 10
From: Austin TX
Secondly, have you a clue of the direct relationship between coolant temp vs. oil temp? Do you have any idea what coolant temp (operating temp) would be required to keep the oil at 140-150 degrees continuous? It would require the coolant temp to stay at 125f which would would require two or three radiators to accomplish.
Lastly, you were given a homework assignment. We eagerly await the results from your lab:
Experiment 1: Get a quart of oil (32 oz.). Pour it in a container then add one liquid ounce of water making 33 ounces. Shake it up. Now time how long it takes for the 'water-in-oil' emulsion (I know, big word) takes to return to the 32 oz. level. Heat it up if you wish, let it sit, do whatever, and generate your own "rate of evaporation chart".
Experiment 2: Add a liquid ounce of water to another quart of oil. Heat the 33 ounces to a temp of 212f+. Chart how long it takes for the mixture to return to 32 ounces.
Compare the time elapsed for the two experiments.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 10
From: Austin TX
You must have the only production car built in which the oil temp runs 20 degrees lower than the coolant temp. (Or, you have a bad oil temp gauge and/or sensor).
Le Mans Master
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From: Butler Pa
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 10
From: Austin TX
Boys,..unless somebody can forward one credible doc (just one!) to support the claim that it's not important (to engine longevity) for oil to reach a temp 212f, I'll be on my way. My work here is done.
As I say goodbye, I'll leave you with the "212 Fahrenheit Greatest Hits":
From here:
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html
...is this:
"Your engine forms moisture,..this moisture is washed down into the oil and awaits vaporization,..you can see why you want your oil over 212 degrees, to boil out the moisture immediately! A 160 thermostat usually does NOT accomplish this temperature."
From here:
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/..._cool_engines/
...is this:
(Neal Matheson & Scott Leon, former GM proving ground technicians)
"SR: Is there an ideal engine operating temperature (coolant temp)?
Neal: 190 degrees is probably ideal, with a quick warm-up. That's hot enough to boil (212f) off moisture (from the oil),..
Scott: 190-degrees to avoid sludge buildup and to remove moisture from the oil.
SR: What's too hot? Too cold?
Neal : Lower temperatures results in rapid sludging,..lower operating temperatures provide most people a false sense of security"
From here:
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
...is this:
"Furthermore, (a) 160º (thermostat) is too cold; OEM testing has proven that the rate of cylinder bore and piston-ring wear at 160º is double the wear rate at 180º, and a coolant temperature of 160º won’t let the oil in the pan get hot enough to boil (212f) out condensed moisture and blow-by contaminants, which then remain in suspension and accelerate the formation of acidic sludge."
From here:
http://www.synlube.com/oilv.htm
...is this:
"Water: is adsorbed by the graphite colloids (in the engine oil), and is released at temperatures over 212°F as steam which is then recirculated back into the intake tract (via PCV system) in all modern engines."
From here:
http://blogs.carcraft.com/6548853/ed...k-controversy/
...is this:
"With a street engine, it’s important that oil temperatures exceed 212 degrees F to ensure that the inevitable water that condenses in the crankcase during cold engine operation has a chance to turn into steam and be evacuated out of the crankcase."
From here (some guy named Lingenfelter):
http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC...page&q&f=false
...is this:
"It (oil temp) should be at least 210 degrees F. .
From here:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/pm.htm
...is this:
"Short trip driving is especially hard on oil because the engine never warms up enough to boil (212F) off the moisture that accumulates inside the crankcase. The moisture comes from combustion gases that blowby the piston rings (the older the engine, the greater the amount of blowby). Most of these gases are removed by the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system. But in a cold engine much of the moisture condenses and ends up in the oil. Water reacts with oil to form sludge and acids, and the result is accelerated engine wear."
From here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
...is this:
"Oils are chosen by the manufacturer to give the right thickness at the normal operating temperature of the engine,..this average oil temperature is 212°F, the boiling point of water."
From here:
http://www.nairaland.com/1054692/kno...ich-engine-oil
...is this:
"Engine designers typically design the engine (oil) to operate ideally at 212F (100 degree Celsius)"
From here:
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ne-durability/
...is this:
"Water and low oil temperatures (conspire to) significantly increase the propensity to rust. Engines fired up infrequently generate a tremendous amount of condensation. If the engine isn’t allowed to completely warm up, this condensation remains inside the engine. Water will not burn off until the internal engine temperature (oil temperature) reaches 212 degrees F. This water will then attack any surface which isn’t adequately protected by either an oil film..."
From here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...atters-feature
...is this:
"Water gets into the crankcase through condensation and blowby from the combustion chambers. Fortunately, small quantities of water vaporize from the crankcase as the engine warms up and the oil temperature gets above 212 degrees, which it does after a few minutes on a freeway."
From here:
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-st...-you-need-one/
...is this:
"But when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase."
From here:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/oil_tech/
...is this:
"...for every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also creates a pound of water. Some of this water will eventually end up in the oil pan. If the engine rarely sees (oil) sump temperatures that exceed 212 degrees F (water's boiling point), the water quickly mixes with another combustion byproduct--sulfur--to create acids that can eventually eat bearings,.."
From here:
http://saeeng.saejournals.org/content/4/1/175.abstract
...is this:
"At engine oil temperatures below 100°C (100c = 212f) the water from the blow-by condensates and dilutes the engine oil in the oil pan which negatively affects engine wear. Therefore engine oil temperatures above 100°C (212f) are desirable to minimize engine wear through blow by condensate."
From here:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2001...engine-sludge/
...is this:
"...the oil temperature is high enough to boil (212f) off and extract all the water (now vaporized) and other volatile contaminants via the PCV system."
From here:
http://www.askamechanic.info/askamec...t/view/168/62/
...is this:
"Engines make a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel they burn, and while most of that goes out the tail pipe, some of it goes past the rings into the crankcase with the inevitable blow-by. If the engine is running too cool, the water in the blow-by tends to condense and mix with the oil and form sludge. On an engine that is running the correct temperature, the PCV system eliminates the water as vapor."
From here:
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/340
...is this:
"The heat and cool cycles allow moisture to form in the crankcase. Detergent and additives in the engine oil, pick this up and hold it in suspension. When the oil temperature reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the water (in the oil) boils and turns to steam. The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV system draws the moisture out and helps prevent problems."
From here:
http://papers.sae.org/260016/
...is this:
"...higher (oil) temperature is effective in striking an acceptable balance in such contamination and results of the tests show that the cylinder-walls are maintained (little-to-no wear) at (oil) temperatures sufficiently above the vaporization point of water (212f) to reduce the condensation of water vapor to the minimum. Water in the crankcase is the objectionable element."
From here:
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tec...-you-need-one/
...is this:
"If you’re driving a high performance vehicle — or really any vehicle, for that matter — the importance of oil temperature cannot be overstated."
"...when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase.”
From here:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...etails?id=3601
...is this:
"On short trips the engine oil does not get up to the ideal temperature of 212 degrees Fahrenheit."
From here:
http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...otor-oils/#Z24
...is this:
"(Sludge problem) can easily be solved by getting the engine (and oil) sufficiently hot, >212F."
As I say goodbye, I'll leave you with the "212 Fahrenheit Greatest Hits":
From here:
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html
...is this:
"Your engine forms moisture,..this moisture is washed down into the oil and awaits vaporization,..you can see why you want your oil over 212 degrees, to boil out the moisture immediately! A 160 thermostat usually does NOT accomplish this temperature."
From here:
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/..._cool_engines/
...is this:
(Neal Matheson & Scott Leon, former GM proving ground technicians)
"SR: Is there an ideal engine operating temperature (coolant temp)?
Neal: 190 degrees is probably ideal, with a quick warm-up. That's hot enough to boil (212f) off moisture (from the oil),..
Scott: 190-degrees to avoid sludge buildup and to remove moisture from the oil.
SR: What's too hot? Too cold?
Neal : Lower temperatures results in rapid sludging,..lower operating temperatures provide most people a false sense of security"
From here:
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
...is this:
"Furthermore, (a) 160º (thermostat) is too cold; OEM testing has proven that the rate of cylinder bore and piston-ring wear at 160º is double the wear rate at 180º, and a coolant temperature of 160º won’t let the oil in the pan get hot enough to boil (212f) out condensed moisture and blow-by contaminants, which then remain in suspension and accelerate the formation of acidic sludge."
From here:
http://www.synlube.com/oilv.htm
...is this:
"Water: is adsorbed by the graphite colloids (in the engine oil), and is released at temperatures over 212°F as steam which is then recirculated back into the intake tract (via PCV system) in all modern engines."
From here:
http://blogs.carcraft.com/6548853/ed...k-controversy/
...is this:
"With a street engine, it’s important that oil temperatures exceed 212 degrees F to ensure that the inevitable water that condenses in the crankcase during cold engine operation has a chance to turn into steam and be evacuated out of the crankcase."
From here (some guy named Lingenfelter):
http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC...page&q&f=false
...is this:
"It (oil temp) should be at least 210 degrees F. .
From here:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/pm.htm
...is this:
"Short trip driving is especially hard on oil because the engine never warms up enough to boil (212F) off the moisture that accumulates inside the crankcase. The moisture comes from combustion gases that blowby the piston rings (the older the engine, the greater the amount of blowby). Most of these gases are removed by the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system. But in a cold engine much of the moisture condenses and ends up in the oil. Water reacts with oil to form sludge and acids, and the result is accelerated engine wear."
From here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
...is this:
"Oils are chosen by the manufacturer to give the right thickness at the normal operating temperature of the engine,..this average oil temperature is 212°F, the boiling point of water."
From here:
http://www.nairaland.com/1054692/kno...ich-engine-oil
...is this:
"Engine designers typically design the engine (oil) to operate ideally at 212F (100 degree Celsius)"
From here:
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ne-durability/
...is this:
"Water and low oil temperatures (conspire to) significantly increase the propensity to rust. Engines fired up infrequently generate a tremendous amount of condensation. If the engine isn’t allowed to completely warm up, this condensation remains inside the engine. Water will not burn off until the internal engine temperature (oil temperature) reaches 212 degrees F. This water will then attack any surface which isn’t adequately protected by either an oil film..."
From here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...atters-feature
...is this:
"Water gets into the crankcase through condensation and blowby from the combustion chambers. Fortunately, small quantities of water vaporize from the crankcase as the engine warms up and the oil temperature gets above 212 degrees, which it does after a few minutes on a freeway."
From here:
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-st...-you-need-one/
...is this:
"But when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase."
From here:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/oil_tech/
...is this:
"...for every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also creates a pound of water. Some of this water will eventually end up in the oil pan. If the engine rarely sees (oil) sump temperatures that exceed 212 degrees F (water's boiling point), the water quickly mixes with another combustion byproduct--sulfur--to create acids that can eventually eat bearings,.."
From here:
http://saeeng.saejournals.org/content/4/1/175.abstract
...is this:
"At engine oil temperatures below 100°C (100c = 212f) the water from the blow-by condensates and dilutes the engine oil in the oil pan which negatively affects engine wear. Therefore engine oil temperatures above 100°C (212f) are desirable to minimize engine wear through blow by condensate."
From here:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2001...engine-sludge/
...is this:
"...the oil temperature is high enough to boil (212f) off and extract all the water (now vaporized) and other volatile contaminants via the PCV system."
From here:
http://www.askamechanic.info/askamec...t/view/168/62/
...is this:
"Engines make a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel they burn, and while most of that goes out the tail pipe, some of it goes past the rings into the crankcase with the inevitable blow-by. If the engine is running too cool, the water in the blow-by tends to condense and mix with the oil and form sludge. On an engine that is running the correct temperature, the PCV system eliminates the water as vapor."
From here:
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/340
...is this:
"The heat and cool cycles allow moisture to form in the crankcase. Detergent and additives in the engine oil, pick this up and hold it in suspension. When the oil temperature reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the water (in the oil) boils and turns to steam. The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV system draws the moisture out and helps prevent problems."
From here:
http://papers.sae.org/260016/
...is this:
"...higher (oil) temperature is effective in striking an acceptable balance in such contamination and results of the tests show that the cylinder-walls are maintained (little-to-no wear) at (oil) temperatures sufficiently above the vaporization point of water (212f) to reduce the condensation of water vapor to the minimum. Water in the crankcase is the objectionable element."
From here:
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tec...-you-need-one/
...is this:
"If you’re driving a high performance vehicle — or really any vehicle, for that matter — the importance of oil temperature cannot be overstated."
"...when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase.”
From here:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...etails?id=3601
...is this:
"On short trips the engine oil does not get up to the ideal temperature of 212 degrees Fahrenheit."
From here:
http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...otor-oils/#Z24
...is this:
"(Sludge problem) can easily be solved by getting the engine (and oil) sufficiently hot, >212F."
Last edited by 73, Dark Blue 454; Sep 18, 2014 at 12:25 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,506
Likes: 139
From: Butler Pa
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
Likes: 890
From: South Western Ontario
Not only do they ignore all these "you need 100*C or your oil gets contaminated" clowns, GM even goes as far as to accept any oil temperature from 80*C - 130*C as being perfectly normal without any oil life de-rating for contamination. It's all in the GM patents the dead horse beater in this thread refuses to acknowledge.
The oil in my C5 hasn't gone above 195*F since this thread started and I've driven it >500 miles in that time. I have been doing the same type of driving for the last few months so I highly doubt the oil has reached 212*F for at least a few 1000 miles of driving. My engine oil must be a disgusting mix of acids and water sludge by now. Maybe I should sue GM for this - the car should be telling me to change the oil by now...
Last edited by lionelhutz; Sep 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,478
Likes: 254
From: Downers Grove Illinois
I found these 2 quotes from here regarding oil temps interesting.
I would be leery of changing anything since your temperature sensor is only in one spot, yes? So there may be portions of the engine where you can't measure oil temp, and it may be considerably higher there.
That's exactly my point, it's not measured anywhere near the pistons or cylinders, where it would be considerably hotter.
I would be leery of changing anything since your temperature sensor is only in one spot, yes? So there may be portions of the engine where you can't measure oil temp, and it may be considerably higher there.
That's exactly my point, it's not measured anywhere near the pistons or cylinders, where it would be considerably hotter.