lion,..again, before making any more statements, please go back and read from the 25 links posted above. You clearly haven't bothered yourself with the facts.

Also, you might brush up your understanding of 'operating temperature' (coolant temp) and it's direct impact on oil temp. Trust me, the GM engineers know what they're doing. Example, take another look at this photo (since apparently you missed it earlier in this discussion):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2914-1994-1996-Corvette-LT1-C4-Dash-gauge-cluster-orignal-GM-16168021-/181297786263?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a3630ad97
...which clearly shows that the GM (Corvette) engineers intend the operating temp (coolant) to run at 185f which will ensure the oil temp will run at 215f.

Lastly, I've posted 25 docs above that clearly state that the engine oil temp needs to be brought up to 212f to vaporize the accumulated moisture (and other combustion byproducts). I could, with ease, post 2-300 more supporting docs that say the same thing.

Your turn. Find us ONE credible doc that supports your notion that, for engine longevity, it's ok to run your oil at cooler temps (cooler than 212f). Just one.

 

what about synthetic oil which runs several degrees cooler? what about cars in Minnesota in the winter that probably once a week the thermostat will crack open. and why isn't there a block of ice in the oil pan. good grief .

 

 

Some people just lack basic understandings.

Sure, water in the oil would boil at 100*C, BUT ONLY IF THERE IS WATER TO BOIL.

You need to FIRST PROVE that water REMAINS in the oil when the oil is running at a lower temperature than 100*C for your claims to matter. In other words, prove the oil remains contaminated by water when the engine is operating with the oil at say 80*C or 90*C compared to 100*C.

Are you unable to post a single link to actual R&D work that is related to this? It sure seems like it since all you've proven is that anyone can repeat some claim they once read. What you keep linking to is about the equivalent of the crap repeated everywhere saying exhaust back-pressure is required for low-end torque. I can find you 25 links to that nonsense but actual R&D work will prove it isn't true.


I have already provided 3 patent numbers for GM that are based on millions of dollars of oil life testing. They clearly show that the GM testing found there are no bad temperature related effects on oil from about 75*C to 130*C. In other words, if the oil was good to use for 20,000 miles with the oil at 100*C then it is also good for 20,000 miles at 75*C or 20,000 miles at 130*C.

Your counter claim for this is based on a picture? That response is a complete joke.

Then you further rant on that I need to provide one creditable document? I gave you THREE creditable documents as proof of what I claimed.



Ya, I read that claim earlier that water "sinks to the bottom of the sump making evaporation almost non-existent in state". Does that apply to the engine when running? A water puddle in the bottom of a running engine?

I don't have an oil temperature gauge in my truck but I'd bet money the oil never reaches 100*C throughout the freezing winter months no matter how long I drive it. It runs really cool and barely produces enough heat to keep the cabin hot on a cold day.

 

7t9,..welcome to the discussion. It's not clear where you're going with this. If you're stating there's no penalty (engine wear) on engines that never reach operating temp, I encourage you to read from the 25 links posted above.

 

Food for thought from here.

This study had demonstrated that the engine noise and the engine oil pressure were strongly dependent on the operating temperature of the oil and the engine speed. ...The high viscosity of lubricants in low temperature caused higher friction and noise.

 

lion,..again, don't believe me. Like you, I'm just a bloke on the internet. Instead, please, spend 10-15 minutes reading from the 25 links posted above. Again for the 5th time, I could post 2-300 more links that say the same thing.

In response to your statements,..

1) Do you not think water is heavier than oil?

2) Learn what an emulsion is (water-in-oil emulsion), a condition that would exist on a running engine reducing chances for simple evaporation. Again, as stated at least a dozen times in the links above, with oil temps below 212f, water combines with the oil (and other blow-by byproducts) to form harmful acids and compounds which promote engine wear and corrosion.

3) If you've presented "three credible docs", that support your point of view, where are they? Please link them up and let's discuss.

Again, please read from 25 links posted above. The English is plain. The verbiage is simple. The terminology is basic. If 25 quotes from experts isn't enough, I'd be happy to post dozens more.

 

SAE has some interesting studies, but not exactly what we are discussing. They also are not free.

 

Too stupid to use Google? No link means it doesn't exist?

Patent 4,742,476 - http://www.google.com/patents/US4742476
Patent 4,847,768 - http://www.google.com/patents/US4847768
Patent 6,327,900 - http://www.google.com/patents/US6327900

These are patents from very large R&D efforts that have been applied in real life. Not some blowhards making claims with no real data to back them up besides the knowledge that water boils at 100*C.'

IF you don't agree then post some R&D that counters this information.

 

The first patent has a range of about 80-130 C where they don't derate the life of the oil, but the third patent shows a range of about 50-130 C where they don't derate the oil life. That is a significant difference in the starting range. They do make for an interesting read.

 

I was outside early enough this morning to see a heavy dew (condensed moisture) on just about every surface. Miracles of miracles, it evaporated not long after the sun rose and long before the air temps got much above 10*C.

After what I've learned here about the new laws of physics, I was pretty sure the local TV news would want to do a story on it. They just hung up on me when I called. WTF?

 

Those patents were very informative. Seems oil temp equilibrium is achieved at about 80 C-100C for optimal lubrication properties (see charts from patent links) not due to water accumulation only but many other factors-see quote above. Interestingly, the "magic" number is NOT 212 degrees but somewhere between 80-100C which is 175-212 degrees. For those paying attention, please see my earlier post that stated that 3 examples of cars I have owned or do own with oil temp gauges (2 of them vettes) that my oil temperature seems to always hover around-drum roll….175 degrees F, not 212.hmmmm….

 

Just a little food for thought. I own an old Correct Craft Ski Tique. Its powered by a small block and requires a 145* Tstat. The boat will not run any warmer than 140* or so. I have unfortunatly negleted her some as its aquired 160 hours of run time on the same oil spread over two seasons. In my opinion if condensation was a major issue the boat wouldnt be marinized to run at that temp. Also in the two seasons It hasnt accumulated as much moisture as i figured it would as I have been watching it by looking in the valve covers for milky residue on the oil cap and such. In my opinion this would be about the best way to highlight the h2o problem being disscussed here. There is no condensation caught on the dipstick or rust buildup on any of the engine valve train parts to date. I do need to change the oil though as its supposed to be changed every one hundred hours...

 

I know nothing about marine engine cooling. I assume it uses water from the lake, but there must be a part that is more of a closed loop to reach even 140-145 F. How does your system work in basic terms? It would be interesting to have your used oil analyzed.

 

From what I can tell, the first 2 are from the original GM R&D work.

The third one is for a diesel and is significantly newer. My guess would be that the 50*C lower limit is due to the additional factor for contaminant production.

 

My point exactly.

At what temperature does conventional motor oil stratify, or seperate by layers? One of the purposes aside from lubrication is to cool and if you believe that what temp cools better 195 or 160?

oops!

 

OK . lake water enters through hull intake, enters raw water pump,then feeds t stat housing which acts also as a bypass to exhaust manifolds when stat is closed, leaves housing into manifolds and circulation pump, circulation pump into engine and out of stat to manifolds when stat open. Sorry best I can describe.

 

Here's the only relevant quote I found from the first doc:

"At low oil temperatures, fuel, water and soot tend to accumulate in the oil, reducing its viscosity and increasing (engine) wear. In addition, acids produced by incomplete combustion reduce the ability of the oil to prevent rust and corrosion."

From the second doc, this is the only quote that pertains to the discussion:

...cold (oil) temperature, short trip service, where the average trip length is approximately 2.5 miles (4.0 km). Under such conditions, fuel dilution and engine wear become significant problems, and the oil change interval is reduced to approximately 1"

From the third doc (which BTW, is about diesel engines), here's the only quote that pertains:

"At low engine oil temperatures, typically during start-up, fuel and water can accumulate in the engine oil."

---------------

If there are statements in any of the three docs that you wish to cite to support your opinion, let's see 'em.

 

Mike,..thanks for sharing your morning's experience with us. So is this how you've formed your opinion that there's little-to-no moisture in the crankcases of internal combustion engines?,..because it simply evaporates?

Do this,..

Experiment 1: Get a quart of oil (32 oz.). Pour it in container then add one liquid ounce of water making 33 ounces. Shake it up. Now see how long it takes for the 'water-in-oil' emulsion (I know, big word) takes to return to the 32 oz. level. Heat it up if you wish, let it sit, do whatever, and do your own "rate of evaporation chart".

Experiment 2: Add a liquid ounce of water to another quart of oil. Heat the 33 ounces to a temp of 212f+. Chart how long it takes for the mixture to return to 32 ounces.

Compare the time elapsed for the two experiments.

But, there's a another problem. As stated in about 20 of the 25 links posted above, hot blowby gases contain water vapor that sticks to the cooler crankcase components, so moisture is continuously introduced to the oil on a running engine.

This is beautifully explained in about 20 of the 25 links and quotes posted above from the engineers, lubricant companies, car makers, engine builders, etc.

 

Apparently, the 25 links to docs posted previously weren't enough for a couple of you. So let's add a half dozen more:

From here:

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/340

is this,..

"The heat and cool cycles allow moisture to form in the crankcase. Detergent and additives in the engine oil, pick this up and hold it in suspension, helping to prevent a sludge build up. When the oil temperature reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the water (in the oil) boils and turns to steam. The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV system draws the moisture out and helps prevent problems."

From here:

http://papers.sae.org/260016/

is this,..

"...higher (oil) temperature is effective in striking an acceptable balance in such contamination and results of the tests show that the cylinder-walls are maintained at (oil) temperatures sufficiently above the vaporization point of water (212f) to reduce the condensation of water vapor to the minimum. Water in the crankcase is the objectionable element."

From here:

http://www.hotrod.com/feature_storie...l_temperature/

is this,..

"For a dual-purpose car (street/track), engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. For every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water! If engine (oil) sump temperatures rarely exceed 212 degrees (water’s boiling point), the water will mix with sulfur (another combustion by-product) and create acids that can eventually damage bearings."

From here:

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tec...-you-need-one/

is this,..

"If you’re driving a high performance vehicle — or really any vehicle, for that matter — the importance of oil temperature cannot be overstated.

"...when your oil is below 212 degrees Fahrenheit — the boiling point of water — you’re building up moisture in your crankcase. In the combustion process, every time there’s a cycle, water vapor is produced. You then have blow-by, which all engines are victims of to some degree, thus you’re going to have some level of moisture built up inside the crankcase.”

From here:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...etails?id=3601

is this,..

"On short trips the engine oil does not get up to the ideal temperature of 212 degrees Fahrenheit."

From here:

http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...otor-oils/#Z24

is this,..

"(Sludge problem) can easily be solved by getting the engine (and oil) sufficiently hot, >212F."

From here:

http://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/oil/

is this,..

"Even in a perfectly sealed engine.., water will get into the engine and condensate on engine parts. How? For every gallon of gasoline that is burned, a little over a gallon of water is formed as a by-product."

and this,..

"Unless the engine reaches its ideal operating temperature, these volatile contaminates (including water) are left to attack engine parts instead of being burned off by engine heat."

-----------------

And again, I could post 300 more docs that say the same thing as the now 30 docs posted above.

And again, we're still awaiting that one credible doc which states that cooler oil (<212f) is perfectly ok for street driven rigs.