Pulling the trigger on AFR's
Le Mans Master
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Brodix and dart make fully CNC heads Dart in its 220 series thats not even advertised on there web site without you finding it know. But they don't make any smaller heads that way look to cost more money then AFR.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Oct 17, 2014 at 02:58 PM.
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From: California
That i guess would be me:-)
Danny has almost the exact cam for his 427 C5 Guldstarnd....he is running Lingenfilter heads ..... cam should be in in about 3 weeks... then a dyno run for it.... lets see how these heads flow compared to my AFR 220 competition ported...
Danny has almost the exact cam for his 427 C5 Guldstarnd....he is running Lingenfilter heads ..... cam should be in in about 3 weeks... then a dyno run for it.... lets see how these heads flow compared to my AFR 220 competition ported...
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From: piney flats tn
To make a general statement about street and lets use AFR heads. Heads with high peak numbers tend to also have great low lift numbers. I'm not sure why AFR 210 lags so far behind at only the .400 lift number and then exceeds the 195 by such a big margin at .500.
But when you feed input data to an engine simulation program the more info you can input the more accurate it becomes. So if you add up the .100, .200, ..... .500 cfm intake flow rates of the 210 VS the 195 The 195 appears to win by a margin of 5 cfm just using those numbers.
Now look at the roller cam lobe and see how much time is spent at or near max lift like the posters .530 lift. You are spending much more time getting getting 292 cfm vs the 195 heads 275 cfm. That time spent at .500+ lift more than off sets the 5 cfm mathematical lead of the smaller 195
406 is not a small motor and like me and every other hot rodder out there is never happy with the power after awhile and they seek bigger and better. Well if you buy the big heads to begin with you don't have to buy another set for your next project. I bought 227 cc for my 383 because I didn't want to go over board and later on I had to put in a bigger cam because it needed it.
Flow @ .200
AFR 195- Intake 146 Exhaust 119
AFR 210- Intake 145 Exhaust 110
Flow @ .300
AFR 195- Intake 201 Exhaust166
AFR 210- Intake 199 Exhaust 158
Flow @ .400
AFR 195- Intake 274 Exhaust 197
AFR 210- Intake 255 Exhaust 192
Flow @ .500
AFR 195- Intake 275 Exhaust 213
AFR 210- Intake 292 Exhaust 210
But when you feed input data to an engine simulation program the more info you can input the more accurate it becomes. So if you add up the .100, .200, ..... .500 cfm intake flow rates of the 210 VS the 195 The 195 appears to win by a margin of 5 cfm just using those numbers.
Now look at the roller cam lobe and see how much time is spent at or near max lift like the posters .530 lift. You are spending much more time getting getting 292 cfm vs the 195 heads 275 cfm. That time spent at .500+ lift more than off sets the 5 cfm mathematical lead of the smaller 195
406 is not a small motor and like me and every other hot rodder out there is never happy with the power after awhile and they seek bigger and better. Well if you buy the big heads to begin with you don't have to buy another set for your next project. I bought 227 cc for my 383 because I didn't want to go over board and later on I had to put in a bigger cam because it needed it.
Flow @ .200
AFR 195- Intake 146 Exhaust 119
AFR 210- Intake 145 Exhaust 110
Flow @ .300
AFR 195- Intake 201 Exhaust166
AFR 210- Intake 199 Exhaust 158
Flow @ .400
AFR 195- Intake 274 Exhaust 197
AFR 210- Intake 255 Exhaust 192
Flow @ .500
AFR 195- Intake 275 Exhaust 213
AFR 210- Intake 292 Exhaust 210
Peak demand from the engine does not occur at peak valve lift. Peak valve lift is usually just a result of the valve path, and the critical lift comes some time well before that.
But aside from that...none of your numbers take into consideration any of the other dynamics that take place during just the intake stroke, let alone the entire IC cycle. You can't analyze a cam and cylinder head's performance at one single point of lift or airflow simply because the cam lobe never stops at one single point, and the valve never sits still at any one lift point. It's the sum of all the flow through the entire range of lift. That's why a cam's profile, from open to close, is so critical. It ALL matters, and is ALL important, low lift included.
Also, another untrue statement on your part:
"Heads with high peak numbers tend to also have great low lift numbers." As someone who does cylinder head development for a living I can tell you that's a completely false statement.
And to say;
"Well if you buy the big heads to begin with you don't have to buy another set for your next project"...is really just a bad excuse for making a poor choice.
Team Owner
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Drifting
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From: Tri-Cities TN
Race Director
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From: California
I was thinking that a few post back as well....
Drifting
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From: Tri-Cities TN
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From: California
But I still find it funny how the new member "Scott" chimed in with out mentioning he works for you until George tipped his hat... he should have stated that first and foremost imho... so it would make since that his views are 100% aligned with yours... lol....
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From: piney flats tn
You have been right there.... when you are not available, you do return phone calls promptly. you are free with advice and help on any subject I have ask about.... so, costumer service imho, is at the top.
But I still find it funny how the new member "Scott" chimed in with out mentioning he works for you until George tipped his hat... he should have stated that first and foremost imho... so it would make since that his views are 100% aligned with yours... lol....
But I still find it funny how the new member "Scott" chimed in with out mentioning he works for you until George tipped his hat... he should have stated that first and foremost imho... so it would make since that his views are 100% aligned with yours... lol....
The other thing is, Chris and I are both constantly learning. We've developed many of these same views through our experiences. I've had 6 engines on the dyno this year and every one is a learning experience.
Last edited by scott foxwell; Oct 17, 2014 at 05:48 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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You have been right there.... when you are not available, you do return phone calls promptly. you are free with advice and help on any subject I have ask about.... so, costumer service imho, is at the top.
But I still find it funny how the new member "Scott" chimed in with out mentioning he works for you until George tipped his hat... he should have stated that first and foremost imho... so it would make since that his views are 100% aligned with yours... lol....
But I still find it funny how the new member "Scott" chimed in with out mentioning he works for you until George tipped his hat... he should have stated that first and foremost imho... so it would make since that his views are 100% aligned with yours... lol....
Le Mans Master
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Brodix and Dart build some way serious stuff. Hell profiler has a 370 runner SBC head probably Darin Morgan worked on it for them while he was there.
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Im just joking i suspect 63mako works for AFR just can't prove it LOL. Just glad to see someone say AFR does not own the world.
Brodix and Dart build some way serious stuff. Hell profiler has a 370 runner SBC head probably Darin Morgan worked on it for them while he was there.
Brodix and Dart build some way serious stuff. Hell profiler has a 370 runner SBC head probably Darin Morgan worked on it for them while he was there.
Team Owner
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
I dont know Foxwell personally but have observed many of his builds over the years his stuff makes some awfully impressive power.
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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I dont know Foxwell personally but have observed many of his builds over the years his stuff makes some awfully impressive power.
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
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From: piney flats tn
I dont know Foxwell personally but have observed many of his builds over the years his stuff makes some awfully impressive power.
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
Dart makes a good as cast head quality wise but turned off to a few things how they are represented. In the right hands they can make great power. Hear the little chief heads have made some good progress. One day....
Dart makes a great head. I would guess there are more championships won and records set with Dart heads than any other but they've also been around a long time and been more focused on the hard core racer than the recreational customer. Brodix would probably be a close second or equal IMO. AFR has excellent marketing.
Truth is, there are very few heads that you can buy off the shelf that are ideal for a specific application. Every engine built is a series of compromises including cyl heads. When I build a custom engine the first thing I do is try to decide which head I can use that's closest to what I need and is going to require the least amount of modification or "custom tailoring". AFR, Brodix, Canfield, Dart, Edelbrock, Trick Flow, et all...all have something to offer.
Of course, this is all just my opinion.
Last edited by scott foxwell; Oct 18, 2014 at 10:53 AM.
Le Mans Master
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AFR are the greatest bar none says so right in there airflow numbers and bar graphs shows how good they are at all lift points.
Edelbrock is the best to i can tell they have the most space in advertising in the magazines so does
Comp cams there is no other camshaft made. Everyone has to talk to them on pointers on how to make them right. great funding for the advertising dept.
Edelbrock is the best to i can tell they have the most space in advertising in the magazines so does
Comp cams there is no other camshaft made. Everyone has to talk to them on pointers on how to make them right. great funding for the advertising dept.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Oct 18, 2014 at 12:14 PM.
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Couple of new experts show up every year. I'll stick to what I know works,
big cam, big heads, big carb = big power across the board. Evey thing matched from oil pan to air cleaner. That is how I build a street engine.
Can't say I am wrong here I have been doing this for years and get the most power I can from an engine whatever the cubes and the engine has to have good street manners.
Preaching small cams and heads is really not helping fellow members as you leave power on the table, Unless you have a customer who does not want to rev his engine, would like more torque than HP and doesn't want the most streetable power out of an engine he is going to spend 7-10 grand grand on( I really can't see someone wanting that ) then that's fine choke the motor and you will get that.
big cam, big heads, big carb = big power across the board. Evey thing matched from oil pan to air cleaner. That is how I build a street engine.
Can't say I am wrong here I have been doing this for years and get the most power I can from an engine whatever the cubes and the engine has to have good street manners.
Preaching small cams and heads is really not helping fellow members as you leave power on the table, Unless you have a customer who does not want to rev his engine, would like more torque than HP and doesn't want the most streetable power out of an engine he is going to spend 7-10 grand grand on( I really can't see someone wanting that ) then that's fine choke the motor and you will get that.