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Exploding C3 Myths

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Old Nov 9, 2015 | 07:00 AM
  #101  
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Old Nov 9, 2015 | 07:07 AM
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Default Pre-Soaking Hydraulic Lifters

Another silly myth that has been floating around for many years is the need to "pre-soak" hydraulic lifters in a coffee can full of oil to fill them prior to installation. Well, you can soak lifters in oil from now until doomsday and they will never get filled with oil so its another silly myth that got started by a wannabe engine builder. It takes a small amount of pressure to fill a hydraulic lifter because the check ball at the bottom has to be forced off it's seat to be able to fill the bottom cavity. When you pressurize the oil system with a priming tool to fill the filter and oil galleys the lifters get filled at the same time.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 07:27 AM
  #103  
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Default Using High Octane Gasoline In A Low Octane Engine

Okay, here's another silly myth that pertains to all gasoline engine powered vehicles. Most people still believe using a high octane gasoline in an engine designed for low octane is somehow "better" for the engine. Using "the good stuff" they claim when in fact they are just wasting their money because of their ignorance. And most people still believe the high octane gasoline is a more "powerful" gasoline that will turn their Toyota into a tire smoker. And most people still believe "hotter" spark plugs will produce more power.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 07:33 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
The "hot and running" myth has got to be the most foolish myth of all because the factory never did it and neither did the professionals. Its a silly and messy waste of time that accomplishes nothing more than you would achieve from adjusting them cold and NOT running. And then to make matters even worse most people adjust them to 1/2 turn down from zero lash which is 5/8 turn short of what is needed.

You think 1.125" turns is required???? 1/2 turn works fine and is even recommended by aftermarket manufacturers like Comp Cams.

As for hot and running. Maybe not required but it works and some pro engine builders do use it. Once you have cutout valve covers it's likely just as quick too without making a mess.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 07:35 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
The so-called "figure 8's" after a rear end oil change is another silly waste of time as it accomplishes nothing more than making the driver feel like he's doing something really beneficial. About the equivalent of doing a rain dance while naked or sacrificing a goat. Its a MYTH guys.

It's been recommended in service bulletins put out by the various manufacturers as part of the cure for a chattering differential. It's certainly not required, but it quickly gets the oil with the proper amount of additive into the clutch pack so the problem is gone when the vehicle is given back to the customer.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 08:38 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
"Lop sided"? The fans are designed like that to limit how fast they will spin. In other words they are "out of balance" on purpose.
Originally Posted by Bad Bird
Or the myth that automotive fans are typically asymmetrical so that they are out of balance so as to act as a rev limiter?
First, factory fans are NOT out balance. That would wear the bearings out in the water pump prematurely and no OEM is going to do that. They are mis-tuned, with the blades not being evenly spaced to reduce noise. Has nothing to do with limiting their rotational speed.

Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Please provide your definition of "under inflated". To me under inflated means the tire doesn't contain enough air pressure to safely support the load that it is supporting and in the case of C3's 20 psi in a 255-60R15 is more than enough to support the 900 pounds that it is carrying. That's why quad tires only contain 2 psi or did you know that?
Uh, that's 900 lbs when your car is held at a constant speed in a straight line. Under dynamic loading (i.e. braking, accelerating, corning), the tires will take more load than that.

Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
...The mechanical secondary carburetors are designed for 4000+ engine speeds as found in racing conditions, not for 550 to 5000 rpm use as found in street use.
Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
.... First of all an L-48 running at an 80% volumetric efficiency only consumes 405 cfm at 5000 rpm so a 750 cfm carburetor is way too big. As the carburetors increase in cfm size their venturi bores increase accordingly so the fuel mileage really suffers because of low venturi velocity at cruising speeds. But the biggest drawback of using a mechanical secondary carburetor on a street engine is under a sudden throttle opening at a low rpm the engine falls on it's face because it simply cannot accept that much throttle opening when the venturi vacuum of the primaries and secondaries drops to almost zero. That's why only vacuum secondary or AVS carburetors are recommended for street use.

Yes, a mechanical secondary carburetor can be used on a street engine but a vacuum secondary or AVS carburetor offers much better low rpm performance because of the limited throttle opening and that is why the factories have always used them. For stock L-48's I highly recommend using a #1848 465 cfm electric choke Holley because of it's smaller primary venturi sizes or the OEM QuadraJet for the same reason.
First off you do know carb's are rated at one specific vacuum level and the CFM rating is not directly comparable to an engine's volumetric efficiency without taking into consideration how much vacuum the said engine has at the operating condition that you are interested in, right? If the engine has more or less vacuum than when the carb was on the flowbench, the carb will flow a different CFM. Similar to flow numbers for cylinder heads ... depends on the amount of vacuum they are tested with.

Second, who goes WOT at low rpm's? Have you ever heard of rolling the throttle as in gradually opening the carburetor. The throttle is not a digit device (closed/WOT) and wasn't ever meant to be used like that. So I guess if you have NO driving skill, then vacuum secondaries are the ONLY way to go.

Third, if a mechanical secondary carb is having troubles below 4000rpm, it needs tuning and I don't mean changing jets! There are many other aspects of tuning a carburetor (power valve orifice size, accel. pump size and rate, accel nozzle size, etc.).

Originally Posted by Patro46
You should have seen the thread I posted on a Sharkbite Rear Suspension kit I put on my car. I had more armchair engineer retirees informing how it simply wouldn't work.

Well, works great. Adjustable ride height. Adjustable compression and rebound. Works like its supposed.to work.
Your right it allows you to adjust ride height and shock settings so it does exactly as advertised.

You DID notice on Speed Directs own website it does not say it will improve your car's handling nor about fixing the #1 largest deficiency of the C3's rear suspension ... the inherent toe change (rear steer) with wheel movement. Just reading what their add actually says, and not what is implied.

Last edited by Jason Staley; Nov 9, 2015 at 08:40 AM.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 08:57 AM
  #107  
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Default Oiled Cloth Air Filters

Here's another myth that needs to me trash-canned. The myth that the "oiled cloth" air filters are superior to the OEM pleated paper filters because they flow more and are more efficient at stopping dirt. Well, they will outflow a paper filter of an equal area but as the paper filter is 10 times as big as it needs to be the increased flow isn't an issue. As far as stopping dirt goes the oiled cloth filters are extremely inefficient at stopping fine dirt because in operation their fibers open up and fine dust goes right thru them. It is for that reason they should never be used in agricultural areas where fine airborne dust is prevalent. They are 1940's technology that is making the manufacturers filthy rich by misleading and deceptive advertising.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 09:26 AM
  #108  
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Default Not so fast

Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Here's another myth that needs to me trash-canned. The myth that the "oiled cloth" air filters are superior to the OEM pleated paper filters because they flow more and are more efficient at stopping dirt. Well, they will outflow a paper filter of an equal area but as the paper filter is 10 times as big as it needs to be the increased flow isn't an issue. As far as stopping dirt goes the oiled cloth filters are extremely inefficient at stopping fine dirt because in operation their fibers open up and fine dust goes right thru them. It is for that reason they should never be used in agricultural areas where fine airborne dust is prevalent. They are 1940's technology that is making the manufacturers filthy rich by misleading and deceptive advertising.
Most of your BS has been debunked. How about a response before piling on more drivel?
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Old Nov 9, 2015 | 09:31 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Gale Banks 80'
I work in the marine industry as an engineer. We use watermakers, which use the hot Jacket water from a diesel engine in a heat exchanger to heat salt water to a boil under a vacuum. The Steam from the Boil is then cooled and the result is fresh water. There is a window in the end of the camber to allow you to look in and watch the boil. I was always of the opinion that the more the flow the better it would boil. Was I ever wrong. It turns out that the slower it is the better. I barely open the throttling valve now. This is one rare situation where one can look in and see instantly the results of heat being exchanged from one source to another. It can go from a simmer to a ragging boil in 10 seconds with a turn of the valve. Since I have found that most Cooling issues no matter what it is is generally to much flow not allowing enough time for the heat to exchange. Its just human nature to think that more is better. I have found not to be true when exchanging heat from one source to another.
I have a similar setup and experience just the opposite. As long as the flow isn't too slow (ie. not enough cooling water to absorb the heat), the speed or rate of flow has absolutely no effect on the rate of heat exchange. the distillate comes out the same temp regardless. I am not using vacuum, though, and we are talking about the change of state and the latent energy required to do so, which is not necessarily applicable to an engine's cooling system.

but that said, the "slow enough to do it's job" is pure bunk and has been proven more times than is worth even discussing...

btw, here's one: If you want your AC to get colder, put a smaller pulley on the compressor to slow the flow down, then it will get colder in the evaporator...
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 09:59 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by gungatim
btw, here's one: If you want your AC to get colder, put a smaller pulley on the compressor to slow the flow down, then it will get colder in the evaporator...
Or turn the blower to a lower speed so the air gets cooled more before coming out the vents....
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 11:21 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Okay, here's another silly myth that pertains to all gasoline engine powered vehicles...high octane...ignorance.
I learned long ago that it is exceedingly difficult to use 'absolute terms' to describe much of anything.

Most (all?) modern vehicles are equipped with knock sensors that exist, in general, to retard engine timing in response to detonation. In a nutshell, one single ping results in timing being pulled back to whatever point is necessary to NOT having the engine ping. The computer does this automatically.

What happens when you put premium gas in the same car? The engine is less prone to detonation...less ping...given a particular timing setting.

The computer will then allow the timing to advance (to a certain point) to the new "ping point" based on the higher octane gasoline.

Obviously, this is a simplistic explanation.

I've run both fuels in my Volvo XC90 with the 4.4L V8 and the difference is nearly imperceptible.

I've run both fuels in my "beater" Subaru Outback with the 3.0L H6 engine and the difference is fairly profound. It doesn't turn the car into a "tire smoker" (it is AWD), but there is enough of a difference in power that it is easily felt.

I don't believe I've ever called anyone "ignorant" because they believe one thing or another. I smile and don't choose to buy what they're selling.

99.765% of the issue with this thread is the inflexible tone and words being used to make a point. The other 0.235% of the issue with this thread is the lack of evidence to support the statements.

It's a painful read.

I don't know why I participate other than, like others, I hate for the misinformation to get perpetuated without correction.

Last edited by keithinspace; Nov 9, 2015 at 12:17 PM.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 11:35 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Jason Staley
Have you ever heard of rolling the throttle as in gradually opening the carburetor. The throttle is not a digit device (closed/WOT) and wasn't ever meant to be used like that. So I guess if you have NO driving skill, then vacuum secondaries are the ONLY way to go.

Second, who goes WOT at low rpm? .
The vast, vast majority of people who are trying to accelerate at maximum speed.

Last edited by Priya; Nov 9, 2015 at 11:46 AM.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 11:39 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Here's another myth that needs to me trash-canned. The myth that the "oiled cloth" air filters are superior to the OEM pleated paper filters because they flow more and are more efficient at stopping dirt. Well, they will outflow a paper filter of an equal area but as the paper filter is 10 times as big as it needs to be the increased flow isn't an issue. As far as stopping dirt goes the oiled cloth filters are extremely inefficient at stopping fine dirt because in operation their fibers open up and fine dust goes right thru them. It is for that reason they should never be used in agricultural areas where fine airborne dust is prevalent. They are 1940's technology that is making the manufacturers filthy rich by misleading and deceptive advertising.
My aforementioned longtime mechanic husband agrees that oiled foam air cleaners such as the K&N do a very poor job of filtering out dirt and won't put one on any car he works on. He hasn't told me anything about whether or not they are less restrictive.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:10 PM
  #114  
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Most of what toobroke is saying is what is known as pseudoscience.
]
pseu·do·sci·ence
ˌso͞odōˈsīəns/
noun
noun: pseudoscience; plural noun: pseudosciences; noun: pseudo-science; plural noun: pseudo-sciences

a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.


It contains enough detail to fool the unwary or inexperienced layman.
It does not contain the necessary details to actually be fact. Because he himself does not understand the mechanisms behind his statements.
Therefor his lack of knowledge and belief on a subject is passed on as their own "myths", but the inexperienced see it as fact.

To those who would believe everything or anything toobroke says I would say to you, be wary, be smart, and do your homework.
Do not take glib statements at their face value.

Last edited by REELAV8R; Nov 9, 2015 at 12:11 PM.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:17 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by REELAV8R
Most of what toobroke is saying is what is known as pseudoscience.
]
pseu·do·sci·ence
ˌso͞odōˈsīəns/
noun
noun: pseudoscience; plural noun: pseudosciences; noun: pseudo-science; plural noun: pseudo-sciences

a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.


It contains enough detail to fool the unwary or inexperienced layman.
It does not contain the necessary details to actually be fact. Because he himself does not understand the mechanisms behind his statements.
Therefor his lack of knowledge and belief on a subject is passed on as their own "myths", but the inexperienced see it as fact.

To those who would believe everything or anything toobroke says I would say to you, be wary, be smart, and do your homework.
Do not take glib statements at their face value.
Kinda like global warming
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:23 PM
  #116  
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[QUOTE=toobroketoretire;1590866557] About the equivalent of doing a rain dance while naked or sacrificing a goat. [/QUOTE

And you know this from personal experience?
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:26 PM
  #117  
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For those of you around back then, Kind of like the Durango Boy days!

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Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:31 PM
  #118  
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I had forgotten about DB........until now.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:32 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by REELAV8R
Most of what toobroke is saying is what is known as pseudoscience.
I think the keyword in that statement is "most". To me some of what he says is accurate and from what I see some on this thread are taking a kneejerk reaction because they don't like him and attacking everything he says without considering whether or not all of it is false. As you said, given the amount of falsehoods in his statements a person needs to be wary of everthing he says, but I'd like to see his detractors here seperate fact from fiction rather than by default suggesting its all B.S. I'm thinking specifically of the following quote which I believe is largely correct:

Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Many L-48 owners have made the big mistake of installing 750 cfm mechanical secondary carburetors because they have read about so many others installing them (the blind leading the blind). First of all an L-48 running at an 80% volumetric efficiency only consumes 405 cfm at 5000 rpm so a 750 cfm carburetor is way too big. As the carburetors increase in cfm size their venturi bores increase accordingly so the fuel mileage really suffers because of low venturi velocity at cruising speeds. But the biggest drawback of using a mechanical secondary carburetor on a street engine is under a sudden throttle opening at a low rpm the engine falls on it's face because it simply cannot accept that much throttle opening when the venturi vacuum of the primaries and secondaries drops to almost zero.
Now, one poster has argued that a mechanical secondary carb isn't an issue on the street because one can "roll the throttle" and gradually increase the throttle opening when trying to accelerate at a maximum rate and while that is true, for the most part it isn't practical for the vast majority of drivers or will ever be attempted by the vast majority of drivers.
Old Nov 9, 2015 | 12:35 PM
  #120  
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Default This kind of sums up this thread... sorry for those that listen to him:-)

Originally Posted by pauldana
But... it has been interesting reading on a boring Monday morning:-)
That was needless repetition. It looks like you're trying to make the "IBTL" comments self-fulfilling.



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