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So I am Replacing all of my front suspension, and when I bought My car the owner gave me a bunch of new parts he never put in. One being a set of coil springs, that have no specific markings on them so I figured I’d save a $100 bt using them. But when I tried to line up the knotches in the control arms, the knotches on the new springs don’t line up. And when I compared Them to the original ones I figured They were the incorrect springs. What do you guys think?
This subject comes up and never gets a proper answer. There is a notch in the frame pocket at the top, with a hole at the end to supposedly allow you to verify the very end of the spring is in proper place, i.e. visible in hole at top.
There is also a similar notch in the lower control arm, and a hole there as well.
If the end of the coil is supposed to be visible in both holes, then the ends of the top and bottom of the coil MUST be in cut in a very specific clock location, and maybe different on left and right side.
NOW, are the aftermarket coils built the same regarding this clock location of the end of the springs??? I can see in these photos that these particular ones are NOT, and my Moog springs were not; however both pictures above show the OEM springs with the ends pretty much in same clock position. IS this an issue that aftermarkets are simply not designed right?
So now what? It seems the consensus from previous threads that what matter is the top of the spring be correctly in the notch and visible at the hole, and wheverever the bottom ends up is OK......but this simply does not make sense to me, since there are notches in both the frame pocket, and the lower control arm.
What do you say experts? The AIM for 77 does not have any notes, or requirements on where the end of the coil spring should be at the top, or bottom, relative to the holes. Maybe the truth is, it doesn't matter at all where the ends of the springs are on top or bottom?? But would that not affect road height, i.e. same spring in pocket should make car sit lower versus spring end NOT in pocket.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Feb 2, 2018 at 12:56 PM.
And then to add to that question.....when you go to cut a coil for lowering....it obviously moves one of the ends to a different position!!! I am going to be cutting my coils this weekend to lower, and my plan is to end up with the top of the coil in the pocket, and where the bottom ends up will have to be whatever it is to get the right height.
It appears that you have a pair of HD, probably 550 lb, lowering springs to replace a pair of standard springs. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.
As far as the ends matching up with the pockets/holes top and bottom, when I installed my 550lb springs I made sure they were positioned properly in the lower control arm and paid no attention to how they were positioned at the top. That was quite awhile ago with no negative repercussion.
Hi J,
Another thing to notice about the original spring is the fact that there are coils that are closer together than the rest.
These close coils are the 'top' of the spring and should be inserted in the spring pocket in the frame.
The spring is designed to load 'progressively' and the closer coils give it that capability.
Regards,
Alan
Here you can see the circular depression the top of the spring must seat in and the hole through which the cut end of the spring can be seen when the spring is 'clocked' correctly in the frame pocket.
The depression is sized for the diameter of the top most coil and for the diameter of the 'wire' the spring is wound from.
From: Some days your the dog and some days your the hydrant.
Royal Canadian Navy
If the bottom of the spring doesn't butt against the stop then make a new stop by drilling a hole in the lower pocket and put a bolt through the hole with a fastener to secure the bolt. I've never tried this but don't see why it wouldn't solve the problem, if in fact such a problem exists.
Still no real answer from anyone. Resdoggie's point would suggest the idea that there is possibly some issue with the spring "moving" clockwise within the pockets during driving. I never understood that was a possibility or the issue. And I doubt if this happens. Which way would the spring try to move if it did?
I thought the issue was more about the spring end initial position relative to the spring pockets that Alan showed a picture of. Those pockets exist in both the frame upper pocket, and in the lower control arm. So, if I understand this correctly, the end of the top, and the end of the bottom both fit into these formed slots, and the car will be lower than it will be if either spring end sits outside those pockets. And possibly.....IT DOES NOT MATTER EITHER WAY?? Since aftermarket springs are not cut the same way as the originals I have seen, it may not matter. If you get the correct ride height when you install it, that's all that matters.
As for Alan's point on spring spacing tighter at the top, I would like an engineer to explain what difference it would make if this is at top or bottom....is not the weight of the car on the entire spring? And so the effect would be the same no matter which way it is installed???? I just cannot see the engineering difference it would make.
Appreciate any intelligent input on this.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Feb 2, 2018 at 06:15 PM.
It appears that you have a pair of HD, probably 550 lb, lowering springs to replace a pair of standard springs. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.
As far as the ends matching up with the pockets/holes top and bottom, when I installed my 550lb springs I made sure they were positioned properly in the lower control arm and paid no attention to how they were positioned at the top. That was quite awhile ago with no negative repercussion.
SAME -- On my '70 L46 I replaced originals with 550's from VBP and properly positioned them in the BOTTOM pocket (end of the spring butted up against the stop), letting the top end up wherever it needed to. No issues, car sits well and springs operate just fine.
Last edited by JoeMinnesota; Feb 2, 2018 at 06:07 PM.
From: Some days your the dog and some days your the hydrant.
Royal Canadian Navy
Originally Posted by iwasmenowhesgone
Still no real answer from anyone. Resdoggie's point would suggest the idea that there is possibly some issue with the spring "moving" clockwise within the pockets during driving. I never understood that was a possibility or the issue. And I doubt if this happens. Which way would the spring try to move if it did?
That's why I ended my post with "if in fact such a problem exists." I suggested the new "stop" fix for those who feel the spring will somehow bind without a stop. Also, my Gymkhana springs are not like what Alan described. They look the same throughout with equal coil spacing but the ends do align with each other. I suspect stock springs are what Alan shows or pre-'76 model year?
The spring pockets are just that. Pockets that fit the contour of the spring at the ends. As shown in the AIM pic posted the spring is oriented at the top. The bottom ends up where it may but still fits in the contour of the pocket. If you orient the spring at the bottom you run the risk the spring not setting properly in the top contour and have increased right height as well as possible noises. Sometimes you can see it if you use the short spring. It doesn't require the lower control arm to be angled as far to install it. Just set it in and observe the fitment of the upper and lower coils in the pockets.
As far as the orientation of the progressive spring, tighter coils and one end then a the other, the looser wound coils usually go on the movable arm side of the apparatus. That would be the lower control arm end as the top is fixed in the frame. Not sure why other than on a car it will reduce unsprung weight to some degree.
Still no real answer from anyone. Resdoggie's point would suggest the idea that there is possibly some issue with the spring "moving" clockwise within the pockets during driving. I never understood that was a possibility or the issue. And I doubt if this happens. Which way would the spring try to move if it did?
I thought the issue was more about the spring end initial position relative to the spring pockets that Alan showed a picture of. Those pockets exist in both the frame upper pocket, and in the lower control arm. So, if I understand this correctly, the end of the top, and the end of the bottom both fit into these formed slots, and the car will be lower than it will be if either spring end sits outside those pockets. And possibly.....IT DOES NOT MATTER EITHER WAY?? Since aftermarket springs are not cut the same way as the originals I have seen, it may not matter. If you get the correct ride height when you install it, that's all that matters.
As for Alan's point on spring spacing tighter at the top, I would like an engineer to explain what difference it would make if this is at top or bottom....is not the weight of the car on the entire spring? And so the effect would be the same no matter which way it is installed???? I just cannot see the engineering difference it would make.
It may pay to call the company listed to see their response to your queries, can't hurt.
Thanks for the advice, I knew about them, and had seen their website years ago...they probably can answer my question. Thanks, I will give them a call next week.
Thanks for the advice, I knew about them, and had seen their website years ago...they probably can answer my question. Thanks, I will give them a call next week.
Good Luck.
Last edited by caskiguy; Feb 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM.
Reason: correct comment.
I read the link. I understand the design intent of dual rate springs, my question is that I do not see what difference it would make if the tight coils are on the top versus on the bottom....either way, the softer rate allows the car to roll until the load is increased to the point that the stiffer rate portion takes the load. Its not two springs,....its two springs in one basically and all of the weight is sitting on a single spring, so I just can't get it in my head how it makes any difference if its on top or bottom....that is my question.
I read the link. I understand the design intent of dual rate springs, my question is that I do not see what difference it would make if the tight coils are on the top versus on the bottom....either way, the softer rate allows the car to roll until the load is increased to the point that the stiffer rate portion takes the load. Its not two springs,....its two springs in one basically and all of the weight is sitting on a single spring, so I just can't get it in my head how it makes any difference if its on top or bottom....that is my question.
Not meaning to be confrontational but may I ask what you will do with that information if you find it? The AIM, published by GM, clearly states to orient the spring with the "close spaced coils" at the top at a specific position within the spring pocket.
Coil Spring Question
