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Keeping a starter cooler

 
Old 05-27-2019, 10:09 PM
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kansas123
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Default Keeping a starter cooler

Will wrapping your starter with DEI exhaust wrap keep heat in the starter or keep heat from the starter coming from exhaust manifold? In other words, is wrapping the starter defeating the purpose of trying to keep the heat down on the starter? Thanks ('72 small block, starter is OEM and rebuilt)

I used this on my exhaust and still have a bit left over
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:46 PM
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CanadaGrant
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My opinion would be that you have a hot block on one side, the exhaust right out of the manifold (or header) on the other, hot air flowing back and down from the rad you might not want to wrap the starter as any air is your friend and heat soak isn't. Exhaust wrap keeps heat in but also out. It also holds moisture due to condensation from big temp changes and you don't want that inside a starter. It needs air. I would try one of the newer geared starters or heat shields but not wrapped with that.
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Old 05-28-2019, 01:34 AM
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7T1vette
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Why? The starter doesn't really care about the heat. That "starter heat soak" thing is completely bogus. If you are having 'hot start' problems (won't crank fast when hot), you are missing the big ground cable (right frame to right motor mount and starter bracket) or your heavy gauge wiring is breaking down inside the insulation.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:47 AM
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jackson
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The old-fashioned OE starters have wound field coils which are affected by heat.

more than 20 years ago, OEs changed to permanant magnets instead and eliminated that; they also have an internal planetary gear reduction set.

swap to a new PMGR like what comes on newer GM vehicles ... this one fits sbc/BBC with 168 Teeth on flexplate or flywheel
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product....html#app-list

-edit- this does Not have the extra terminal on solenoid cap to supply OE POINTS ignition during START ... that solenoid cap can be swapped out ...
... or find another underhood START source.

Last edited by jackson; 05-28-2019 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:48 AM
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The wrap you have shown would be a moisture collector. There are much better products on the market for what you are trying to accomplish.

A starter blanket or even a aluminum "shield" will help keep heat from the headers away from starter and destroying the wiring to the solenoid and the end of the solenoid itself.

Look at Summit for either units.

Last edited by HeadsU.P.; 05-28-2019 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 09:37 AM
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kansas123
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Thanks for the responses. By the way, when it does not start, it does nothing, no turning over etc. Quite inconvenient and unpredictable. You can drive it for an hour or two hours or 30 min. Pull in the drive, shut it off, then turn the key to start and nothing. Try it in neutral, try it when wiggling gear selector. Plenty of new battery. Can't remember if all the powered devices still work, have to check that out. Sometimes if I come back in 30 min it will start. Insane. No that the weather is back to normal I'll check out all the wiring from starter, the horn relay, the grounds.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:38 AM
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69autoXr
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Originally Posted by kansas123 View Post
Thanks for the responses. By the way, when it does not start, it does nothing, no turning over etc. Quite inconvenient and unpredictable. You can drive it for an hour or two hours or 30 min. Pull in the drive, shut it off, then turn the key to start and nothing. Try it in neutral, try it when wiggling gear selector. Plenty of new battery. Can't remember if all the powered devices still work, have to check that out. Sometimes if I come back in 30 min it will start. Insane. No that the weather is back to normal I'll check out all the wiring from starter, the horn relay, the grounds.
No click even?
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:52 AM
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DaveL82
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Change to a more modern starter (think I used one from a 1996 vette) or use a relay to run battery current directly to the solenoid.

Before I installed a modern starter the relay worked great and was easy to wire at the firewall. Run wire from battery terminal on starter to relay. Other side of relay to solenoid tab. Run the old wire from the solenoid tab to the relay coil (switch start lead) and add a ground to the other relay coil connection.

When the solenoid gets hot, the ignition start switch and circuit cannot supply enough current and it just gets worse over time. Using a relay takes the load off the switch.

Last edited by DaveL82; 05-28-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:58 AM
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dont forget a bad ignition switch is something to add to your list of things to check
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:07 PM
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Check your neutral safety switch. Had same issues once upon a time and that was the problem with mine.
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:19 PM
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kansas123
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Originally Posted by 69autoXr View Post
No click even?
No click at all
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kansas123 View Post
No click at all
No click means no power to the solenoid. So either it is failing or there is no power getting there at all. The starter is not at fault.
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:50 PM
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You have cable problems. You don't believe it, so you will do nothing about it. But, you'll still have cable problems.

If you had sound wiring and good connections, there would be NO reason for slow [or no] cranking when the engine is hot. But, when bad wiring/connections get hot, the resistance goes up and not enough current gets to the starter. As the factory built it, you have a large positive wire coming directly from the battery to the starter solenoid; and it is connected directly to the starter. There is a large grounding cable that runs from the right-side frame to the motor mount & front starter bracket. That is the negative side of the circuit.

If the starter solenoid is defective, you will have hard starts regardless of the amount of engine heating. Same with the ignition switch and the neutral start switch. Throwing money at a new starter won't make you old cables work any better.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:07 PM
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You have an electrical problem as pointed out by the others. I have a BB with side pipe headers and standard GM starter and it gets crazy hot under hood. The only time I had starting issues is when I forgot to clean/snug the battery terminals (the original L-71 was 11.x:1) in the spring.

A good troubleshooting method is to put alligator clips (14-16 gauge wire long enough to get test point ends out from under the car, insulate both wire ends until using as meter point) one on the Solenoid big terminal and one on the start terminal and then check voltages of both points referenced to engine block ground (this is where the starter is grounded). Note the voltages on each wire with ignition off, on and cranking. Post the numbers, I'm pretty sure we can tell you the root cause. (there are other methods that'll work too) The beauty of the 14-16 gauge wire is you now can do a direct test of crank ability by just touching the two wires together (basically a low buck starter switch).
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:07 PM
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Richard454
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Heat soak- or what ever you want to call it...usually the result of SEVERAL things-

When everything gets hot- battery- wires-starter-engine- nothing wants to work...sort like I feel after cutting the grass this weekend in 95 weather...

So check your connections-have the battery tested ...have the starter tested...one weak link and you'll have problems...

Use the exhaust wrap to keep the heat in the exhaust and a heat shield to keep the heat away from the starter.

Originally Posted by 7T1vette View Post
Why? The starter doesn't really care about the heat. That "starter heat soak" thing is completely bogus. If you are having 'hot start' problems (won't crank fast when hot), you are missing the big ground cable (right frame to right motor mount and starter bracket) or your heavy gauge wiring is breaking down inside the insulation.




Sorry- I have to disagree-

Take a starter and put in the over for 20-30 minutes at 250 and tell me it will operate the same as one room temperature.....aint gonna happen...


Several OEM guys use heat shields- so I think they will make a difference...





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Old 05-28-2019, 06:38 PM
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Agreed, heat soak is real. Winding resistance goes up and if a permanent mag type starter the magnetic field gets weaker (pure physics at work). In most applications a car will still start after heat soak (high compression and electrical problems not included). It really seems like the OP has an electrical issue but heat shields are good insurance.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:39 PM
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Richard is right. GM knew that exhaust pipe heat was an issue with starters. That's why they attached millions of heat shields to GM V8s.

I for one will never wrap headers. I truly believe that enhances rust later on. Most header companies warn buyers that wrapping will void the header warranty.
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 7T1vette View Post
You have cable problems. You don't believe it, so you will do nothing about it. But, you'll still have cable problems.

If you had sound wiring and good connections, there would be NO reason for slow [or no] cranking when the engine is hot. But, when bad wiring/connections get hot, the resistance goes up and not enough current gets to the starter. As the factory built it, you have a large positive wire coming directly from the battery to the starter solenoid; and it is connected directly to the starter. There is a large grounding cable that runs from the right-side frame to the motor mount & front starter bracket. That is the negative side of the circuit.

If the starter solenoid is defective, you will have hard starts regardless of the amount of engine heating. Same with the ignition switch and the neutral start switch. Throwing money at a new starter won't make you old cables work any better.
Wow
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:25 PM
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Initial ignition timing is also a big factor. If you are running more than 15 degrees initial advance as many of us do, you are going to need a PMGR starter.
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:08 AM
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Did you figure out what was causing the "no click"

Nice quote "wow"
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