Keeping a starter cooler
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 13,082
Likes: 3,399
From: SW Florida.
another ground. the first. the worst. my 75 looked like this... straight below battery box. the lug on the frame is a cheap POS. if cable isn't too bad, a solid copper one could be crimped on the end of the cable. the big heavy grommet where cable goes thru batt box is a PITA. doesn't have to be salt. differential metal electrolysis. steel to copper to aluminum wire. i used to build starters for a living. i had 10 in the basement. i can do a delco starter with my eyes shut. i won't use them. ditch the starter for a perm magnet gear reduction unit and lose 15 lbs up front.
Last edited by derekderek; Aug 27, 2019 at 06:27 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Ditch the Delco? What? 30-35-40-45 years is not long enough for a Delco starters life? The solenoids crap out sooner, but still.
Will wait and see how many decades these new mini starters last.
Will wait and see how many decades these new mini starters last.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 767
Likes: 74
From: Blaine MN
When my OEM type dies or I decide to shed some more weight I'll do a mini, lots of anecdotal evidence that they are a good design (multi forums of real world use). The OEM works well and is robust, but it ain't the best design by any stretch imo.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,029
Likes: 1,120
From: North tonawanda NY
I have sidepipes and due to the starter struggling I replaced mine with a mini "S10" style starter and the difference was day and night. in my case the engine was new to the car and higher compression so although the wiring was good the heat and load on the starter was greater.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,877
Likes: 3,556
From: Fernandina Beach FL
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Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
Likes: 890
From: South Western Ontario
72 has a horn relay under the hood? Bring a wire from the start terminal on the solenoid to the horn relay. temporarily insulate the end of it. Then, when it doesn't crank, touch that wire to the power bus on the horn relay. If it then cranks, you have a wiring issue somewhere between the horn relay and the purple wire that goes to the solenoid. Check obvious spots like the firewall connector, ignition switch and neutral safety switch.
As for insulating the starter, I think you'd have better luck with a shield that goes between the starter and the exhaust so that air can still get to it.
The smaller PMGR starters help too because their solenoid requires way less current to energize so they don't load the circuit as much.
As for insulating the starter, I think you'd have better luck with a shield that goes between the starter and the exhaust so that air can still get to it.
The smaller PMGR starters help too because their solenoid requires way less current to energize so they don't load the circuit as much.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
Power going to the solenoid is minor compared with what it takes to crank the engine. Many times, the solenoid might be defective. But when that happens, you get nothing when you turn the key...no click, no light flicker or dimming...nothing. If it tries to start, the problem is the battery or the wiring. The failure of an original GM starter is RARE...usually only when brushes wear down to nothing.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,152
Likes: 890
From: South Western Ontario
Thanks for the responses. By the way, when it does not start, it does nothing, no turning over etc. Quite inconvenient and unpredictable. You can drive it for an hour or two hours or 30 min. Pull in the drive, shut it off, then turn the key to start and nothing. Try it in neutral, try it when wiggling gear selector. Plenty of new battery. Can't remember if all the powered devices still work, have to check that out. Sometimes if I come back in 30 min it will start. Insane. No that the weather is back to normal I'll check out all the wiring from starter, the horn relay, the grounds.
Power going to the solenoid is minor compared with what it takes to crank the engine. Many times, the solenoid might be defective. But when that happens, you get nothing when you turn the key...no click, no light flicker or dimming...nothing. If it tries to start, the problem is the battery or the wiring. The failure of an original GM starter is RARE...usually only when brushes wear down to nothing.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
Likes: 630
From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
my Two GMC 4.3 Sonoma (S10) '97 @ 190K & '02 @ 110K ... both with OE PMGR starters ... pretty sure they're asian too ... Long Enough?
my Three Lincoln 4.6 TC '98, '98 & '99 each nearly 200K ... all with OE PMGR starters ... Long Enough?
Probably a dozen or three friends w/ chev-gmc Vortecs ... pmgr starters are mostly long-lived, trouble-free & reliable ...
... may God bless Field Coils ... they served us well, but may they rest in peace.
But the asians are still making new heavy obsolete direct-drive starters with field coils
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product...-4l-73-81.html
FWIW ... A forum member recently got a brand new genuine Delco HEI distributor ... made in china.
my Three Lincoln 4.6 TC '98, '98 & '99 each nearly 200K ... all with OE PMGR starters ... Long Enough?
Probably a dozen or three friends w/ chev-gmc Vortecs ... pmgr starters are mostly long-lived, trouble-free & reliable ...
... may God bless Field Coils ... they served us well, but may they rest in peace.
But the asians are still making new heavy obsolete direct-drive starters with field coils
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product...-4l-73-81.html
FWIW ... A forum member recently got a brand new genuine Delco HEI distributor ... made in china.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,990
Likes: 183
From: Port St. Lucie Fl
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,029
Likes: 1,120
From: North tonawanda NY
my Two GMC 4.3 Sonoma (S10) '97 @ 190K & '02 @ 110K ... both with OE PMGR starters ... pretty sure they're asian too ... Long Enough?
my Three Lincoln 4.6 TC '98, '98 & '99 each nearly 200K ... all with OE PMGR starters ... Long Enough?
Probably a dozen or three friends w/ chev-gmc Vortecs ... pmgr starters are mostly long-lived, trouble-free & reliable ...
... may God bless Field Coils ... they served us well, but may they rest in peace.
But the asians are still making new heavy obsolete direct-drive starters with field coils
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product...-4l-73-81.html
FWIW ... A forum member recently got a brand new genuine Delco HEI distributor ... made in china.
my Three Lincoln 4.6 TC '98, '98 & '99 each nearly 200K ... all with OE PMGR starters ... Long Enough?
Probably a dozen or three friends w/ chev-gmc Vortecs ... pmgr starters are mostly long-lived, trouble-free & reliable ...
... may God bless Field Coils ... they served us well, but may they rest in peace.
But the asians are still making new heavy obsolete direct-drive starters with field coils
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product...-4l-73-81.html
FWIW ... A forum member recently got a brand new genuine Delco HEI distributor ... made in china.
My uncle had the same issue where his 76 would randomly not start when hot... I replaced the starter with the same vortec starter 4 years ago along with a new battery and no issues since. his starter was original prior to that and he has headers with dual exhaust. I tried wrapping the starter with the foil faced blanket wrap which did not help. And man it seems like we shaved 20lbs off the weight of the front end by replacing the original starter..
Last edited by augiedoggy; Aug 30, 2019 at 12:17 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,502
Likes: 1,510
From: Little Rock AR
This problem is ancient. I put an aluminum heat shield on the solenoid, add the relay and NEVER struggle with it. The relay is also convienient if you want to hook up a remote start switch for engine servicing. Chasing voltage drops in the starter control circuit is a waste of time IMHO.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Years ago they made a Ceramic Starter Solenoid for GM starters.......they could take a lot of heat.....but a search shows that they no longer exist. I think the OP could have had a few problems......but I believe that voltage drop due to heat was the deal........my 69' 427/400 would not click at all either when hot.....wait five-ten minutes with hood open and it would fire right up. I ended up putting the shield on it and it cured it.
But that car was very original and did not want to modify it........now anything else I have or build gets a CVR starter. It spins it like there is no plugs in it. But the biggest thing I guess for me is that it is so much smaller and lighter.....and so much easier to check for starter gear mesh on the flywheel/flexplate. The cable connections are way easier to get to as well.......I have had five cars with these CVR's on them and two of them were trouble free for over five years......
Glad you found the issue OP.
Jebby
But that car was very original and did not want to modify it........now anything else I have or build gets a CVR starter. It spins it like there is no plugs in it. But the biggest thing I guess for me is that it is so much smaller and lighter.....and so much easier to check for starter gear mesh on the flywheel/flexplate. The cable connections are way easier to get to as well.......I have had five cars with these CVR's on them and two of them were trouble free for over five years......
Glad you found the issue OP.
Jebby
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 470
From: Wichita Kansas
I heartily invite you to stay off of my posts in the future. You needn't comment on any of my help or comments to other peoples' posts either. Your mean spirited comments attitude have upset me a great deal and I just don't need your kind of crap. Back off and go away.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,697
Likes: 139
From: Syracuse NY
Ill make this quick and simple because this thread is getting ugly.....
Every GM OEM style starter that Ive had, on small and big blocks, suffered from hot start problems. ( I was also running headers and advanced ignition, so I assume OEM can handle a regular stock motor with stock manifolds) . I replaced all my starters with the small style, 'high torque models that ear available everywhere. Never had a hot start issue since.
Every GM OEM style starter that Ive had, on small and big blocks, suffered from hot start problems. ( I was also running headers and advanced ignition, so I assume OEM can handle a regular stock motor with stock manifolds) . I replaced all my starters with the small style, 'high torque models that ear available everywhere. Never had a hot start issue since.
Last edited by Scottd; Sep 1, 2019 at 04:36 PM.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
From: Wollongong New South Wales AUSTRALIA
Neutral safety switch culprit
For the record, I had cleaned up battery the terminals and chassis earth contact points, fitted new chassis earth & engine earth cables and a new 880 CCA battery, fitted a heat shield on starter, heat wrap on exhausts, rebuilt the starter motor and solenoid. All good to do and probably some incremental gains but the core problem remained. I’m not one to just throw money and parts at a car or pay others to fix basics.