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Based on recommendations from some folks here on the Forum, I took my engine to Jeff in Levittown PA. Super nice guy with an awesome old school shop. Definitely knows what he's doing. After taking the engine apart discovered several broken Pistons several spun bearings. I'm pretty much a mess inside. I'm kind of surprised the engine would start up without a hitch and was running fine except for the My engine block getting some Machine Love Driver side hooker long tube headers. Dented and scraped on the ground
clattering noise. Some photos of the Pistons and heads and work-in-progress to follow. He's now working on rebuilding it into a 383. While the engine is out, I installed a Borgeson steering box to replace the ever leaking old Saginaw system. I am also installing new OBX Stainless Headers and side pipes. The original hookers were rusty, and much to my surprise seem to be rubbing on the ground. I'm thinking that it could be the 225 60 r15 front tires, being much smaller than the OEM tires, may have an impact on the front ride height. There always seems to be too much of a gap above the front tires to the fender. It seemed like the front end was riding a little too high. Thinking about switching to 245, or 255 60 r15. In the front. Already has 255 60 r15 in the back. Very dirty cylinder heads Broken piston
Most of GM's crate motors have been made in Mexico for many years now. I have lost count of the number of GM crate engines I have run across that have failed long before they should have. I wouldn't touch one. If, in fact, GM has started manufacturing these engines in the US, hopefully things will improve.
I will field this question for the owner, since the engine is at my best friends machine shop. It probably was a relatively new made in Mexico GM crate engine with low miles on it. It was new at one point. BUT.... someone took it all apart, an amatuer likely, and really screwed it up. (previous owner did the upgrades according to the OP). It was likely done when the cam was replaced and the heads were upgraded to the better Edelbrock units.
In a mad rant, Jeff rattled off a half dozen things that were done wrong on the re-assembly. The only specific I remember was that both the block and the heads were barely salvageable. They had been previously gasket cleaned with an air tool and a scotch-brite type disc. Both the heads and the block were scored so deeply (and so wavy) from overly aggressive cleaning, with overly aggressive pads, that he had to deck both the block and the heads quite a bit to flatten them out again. They turned out fine, but it was more than he normally has to do. He said he has seen many engines damaged in this way, but this one was one of the worst examples he has ever seen. It is fine now, but just a little bit more of that "aggressive cleaning" and he would have considered them both completely trash. And remember this is a low-mile block!
Then there was the extreme oil varnish, the rod bearing in backwards, and the loose rod bolts. 3 spun rods & a trashed crank. Previous owner or his mechanic was a "beginner" and still learning.
Quote of the day:
Almost anyone can "bolt" an engine together.... fewer can "build" one properly .... and even fewer can spot and "correct" years of bubba abuse.
Last edited by leigh1322; Nov 5, 2020 at 10:19 AM.
Thanks for the update. Its a pity that the person who butchered the rebuild don't get to see the results of their poor skills, maybe then they would learn something. I have to wonder though, if it was just a cam and head upgrade why were the rods and their bearings touched? Possibly incorrect assembly at point of manufacture, we will never know.
I will field this question for the owner, since the engine is at my best friends machine shop. It probably was a relatively new made in Mexico GM crate engine with low miles on it. It was new at one point. BUT.... someone took it all apart, an amatuer likely, and really screwed it up. (previous owner did the upgrades according to the OP). It was likely done when the cam was replaced and the heads were upgraded to the better Edelbrock units.
In a mad rant, Jeff rattled off a half dozen things that were done wrong on the re-assembly. The only specific I remember was that both the block and the heads were barely salvageable. They had been previously gasket cleaned with an air tool and a scotch-brite type disc. Both the heads and the block were scored so deeply (and so wavy) from overly aggressive cleaning, with overly aggressive pads, that he had to deck both the block and the heads quite a bit to flatten them out again. They turned out fine, but it was more than he normally has to do. He said he has seen many engines damaged in this way, but this one was one of the worst examples he has ever seen. It is fine now, but just a little bit more of that "aggressive cleaning" and he would have considered them both completely trash. And remember this is a low-mile block!
Then there was the extreme oil varnish, the rod bearing in backwards, and the loose rod bolts. 3 spun rods & a trashed crank. Previous owner or his mechanic was a "beginner" and still learning.
Quote of the day:
Almost anyone can "bolt" an engine together.... fewer can "build" one properly .... and even fewer can spot and "correct" years of bubba abuse.
I'm having a hard time imagining why and/or how someone doing a cam and head swap on an essentially brand new motor could end up with a rod bearing in backwards and undertorqued rod bolts. On the other hand, these stories abound where Mexican crate motors are concerned. The guy who butchered the block and heads may have been incompetent, but I doubt that what he did caused this failure.
Fuel pump did it with the gas in the garage. It seems that the relatively new Holley fuel pump was leaking gasoline into the oil. I purchased the car in the end of 2016, and drove it for about a year-and-a-half, then it sat in the garage for well over a year. I believe in that year-and-a-half enough fuel had leaked into the oil to create this varnish and compromise the lubrication in the whole bottom end of the engine. The owner before me both the car for casual recreational cruising. I do not drive like that. I think I put a lot more strain on the engine then original owner, and that coupled with the gas leak, was more than the engine could take. In any case at this point I've rebuilt it the way I wanted to anyway. With the 383 kit, much hotter cam, new intake, and carburetor , the engine should make over 400 horsepower at the flywheel. Also added new Borgeson steering box, and stainless steel headers side pipes. Still need new tires,. The 225/55 AR-15s in the front I think are just too small. Engine all done at Jeff's shop
Disco here... the car is ready for the engine. Patience grasshopper
So I'm almost there. The engine is back in the car. It started right up but died after about 30 seconds. MSD ignition box blew out. No red LED. Got a new box and the car ran for about 15 minutes before blowing the Box again. Yes, I know, I should have figured out what was going wrong before I put a new box in. So before I throw another $250 away, I need to figure out what the cause was. Distributor cap and rotor are showing signs of wear. Could that have blown out the box? The coil is fairly new. Electrical system was working fine prior to pulling the engine. Possibly a bad ground? I know that could cause the MSD box to blow during startup, But I'm not sure if that would cause the MSD box to fail once it's running. The only other electrical component that is different is the new Holley carb has an electric choke, which is getting power from the wiper motor. Should I just toss out the MSD stuff, and replace with an HEI system? There seem to be a lot of issues with MSD box is going bad overtime.
I assume you have a Digital 6 as it has an LED light on it.....
Know that the MSD WILL NOT function at 11.9 volts....it has to have a steady 12v to turn on, it is that touchy....
Verify 12v with a meter.
Scott, if you still have the early Delcotron alternator with the external regulator, replace it with the internal regulator model. The internal regulator has a narrow voltage range to prevent voltage surge. That was a major problem with module failure in the 1974 models with HEI ignitions.The MSD #8830 noise suppressor prevents failure due to voltage surge from jump starts or battery charger starts. Jeffmotorman
Scott I was at Jeffs and showed him your post. Says the MSD part is on page 151 of their catalog. Looks like a big fat capacitor. The ad copy even mentions this problem. Said GM had a 50% HEI Module failure rate in 74 til GM figured this out. A later model internal regulator delcotron alternator would help the problem also. You should try sending the unit back to MSD. Good luck.
Leigh
Last edited by leigh1322; Dec 3, 2020 at 12:16 PM.
Reason: part no. update
I read Summit's very brief one sentence ad copy and it does not mention this problem at all. Just "radio noise".
The 2010/11 printed MSD Catalog does, but just barely hints at possible over-Voltage or current surge damage. (below)
However the older MSD Printed Catalog I saw in Jeff's shop specifically mentioned "older external voltage regulators". That is the problem Jeff was referring to and it looks like that ad copy has been removed, and the knowledge almost lost. I'll snap a picture of it and the catalog year next time I am there. Related to Holley purchase? Or just too much editing over time?. That is the copy that matters to those of us with an MSD and a pre 75 external voltage regulator.
We all know MSDs are sensitive, and know we know one of the reasons why.
Jeff dealt with this voltage surge issue doing HEI warranty work at the Chevy Dealer in 74/75.
Last edited by leigh1322; Dec 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM.
I'm having a hard time imagining why and/or how someone doing a cam and head swap on an essentially brand new motor could end up with a rod bearing in backwards and undertorqued rod bolts.
This^^
No way that engine would run for two years with a backwards rod bearing and loose rod cap bolts...
Something else had to be going on at some point that you were not made aware of.
Great thread with lots of good information and pics... the new build should make awesome torque and power. Love the Borgeson conversion as well.
I used a 1980 GM Heil I had laying on the shelf for 10+ years - as is with over 200k miles on it. I drove the snot out of the car all summer = no issues and runs just as good as the MSD box.
Finally Running! In an effort to get the car running long enough to diagnose the electrical issue, we bypassed the MSD Digital 6a and installed a $45 Napa Ignition control module - ECH TP45. Car fired right up. Running smoothly for several hours now. 14 volts at the battery. 13.6 volts at the alternator. No idea what kept burning it out. I had read about this patch on this and other forums, but did not quite understand it. Special thanks to the tech guy at Summit Racing for walking me through the procedure enough to give me the confidence to try it. We replaced the canister coil with a Summit remote coil. You can see it mounted on a home made plate under the distributor and behind the capacitor. Very simple to add. Looking at the catalog image... Cut small red 12v wire running to MSD box and attached to coil + and TP45 upper left contact. Black - from MSD to lower left contact. Green Magnetic pickup wire from Distributor to upper right smaller contact on TP45, then purple Mag pickup wire onto lower right contact. Mount tp45 to bare metal with dielectric grease. Done. Took longer to make the mount for the new coil.
Now for the rest of the story... We got it all together at my friends shop around 8 pm. It was late and my wife was anxious for me to be home after a long day of home schooling the kids. So we did not use the new dist wire end for the coil, nor did we mount it the coil securely. I got halfway home and the car died again. Thinking that we had blown out another ignition control module, I called my friend to get a tow. We towed to my house since I was closer. Around 11:00 p.m. I had to go take a look to see the fried electronics expecting to see melted plastic. Found the detached coil wire instead. Put it back on. Car fired right up again. Next 2 days were raining so I spent some time switching the distributor wire end and mounting the coil. Saturday afternoon. Roads drying out. Time to go for a shakedown drive - first drive since MARCH. Pull out of the garage. Brake pedal goes all the way to the floor. You've got to be !@#$%^! kidding me. I thought I must have broken a line when I "massaged" the brake line splitter putting in the Borgesson box. Nope. just a leaking caliper. Off to Auto zone. Installed in 20 minutes. Got my daughter to help me bleed... Push....Release....Push...Release...50 times... Good as new. The new caliper is even powder coated grey. Guess I'll be getting 3 more soon. Still have some fine tuning to do but it drove great. New steering box is WAY better. First impression is more precise in cornering and much much more confidence inspiring at highway speeds.
Thanks to Jeff Keown. Leeigh1322. Incognito Auto Repair. Tom @ Summit Racing..
Follow up to bad bad engine noise.
That is the copy that matters to those of us with an MSD and a pre 75 external voltage regulator.
