Thanks ! And he may very well be my go-to for those Johnson lifters, not a ton of resources for quality lifters it seems.

 

The heads were setup with a generic solid roller spring........just call PAC and ask them what will go in its place......
Unless they are beehive now....you will be replacing the retainers too......
But yeah.....this was probably the cause of the noise......
Put the right spring in it.....getting better lifters to keep using what you have is not an acceptable fix to me.....
This is VERY common to those who are not paying attention to get the wrong spring package......

Jebby

 

You aren't alone here and this seems to be a common issue.
I purchased the "complete" Edelbrock heads for my 496 build.
When the engine builder was assembling the engine he told me that the valve springs were rated over the spring rate recommended by Crane Cams for the camshaft we selected.
He suggested swapping the springs for a lighter spring rate because the heavier spring rates would wear the valve train components prematurely and I could be replacing those components as early as 5,000 miles.
I had him swap the springs which also required disassembly of the heads and some mild machining.
This was the second time he disassembled the heads because he also recommended that I had him double check the heads to insure absolute straightness, clean up all the ports and runners, which is his standard practice before he installs any new head.
I learned never to purchase complete assembled heads for a custom build again.

 

Do you mind sharing your cam specs please ? And are you currently using 1.6 rockers (intake and exhaust ?) ? Sorry for all the requests but it's research for my 407. Different build but you can never learn too much. TY

 

See attached for full engine component list

 

On custom stuff I only order the heads bare with valve job..........500 lift stuff I will order them assembled but they have to be disassembled and checked first.
The latest set of Trick Flow heads I bought were ordered assembled with PAC hydraulic roller springs.....and I knew the spec would work......but I generally NEVER buy springs from the head builder.....they are generic middle of the road springs spec'd for F/T, H/R or Solid.....

Jebby

 

Thanks,
We live learn and just pay more money.
At least he had the experience to check every detail during assembly.
When I get close to installing it , I'll be taking it back to him to be dyno tuned.

 

You got a good one…..

Jebby

 

Excellent build spreadsheet with quality parts. I'm assuming the .544 lift is with a 1.5 rocker tho'.

 

I have 1.6 ratio Comp Cams Pro Magnum full roller rockers. Here are the full spec's for the cam Mike provided, and copy of emails he sent:

Cam# SBC/Cst, HR70340-71340-112
224/228 @.050' .
340"/.340" Lobe Lift
112 LSA Steel Billet, w/iron gear

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:15 AM Jones Cam Designs <tech@jonescams.com> wrote:

Valve Lift w/1.6 rockers will be .544"/.544"

Intake Closing @.050" is 40 ABDC. Intake Closing @.006" is 64 ABDC

I went with a short seat duration(272/276), and the 112 LSA, with an Intake Centerline of 108. The short seat duration and 108 ICL will make plenty of low-end power, and the 112 LSA will keep the overlap down, so you won't run into any reversion issues during part-throttle driving.

On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 11:24 AM Jones Cam Designs <tech@jonescams.com> wrote:.

050" Opening and Closing points

Intake: opens @ 4btdc, closes @ 40abc
Exhaust: opens @ 50bbc, closes @ 2btdc

.006"(seat) Opening and Closing points

Intake: opens @ 28btdc, closes @ 64abc
Exhaust: opens @ 74bbc, closes @ 22atdc

 

 

Shipping the engine to Mark Jones / Vortecpro to inspect and repair it as necessary. I should have bought a big block from him in the first place, instead of this high dollar 406 with all these issues. I am hopeful Mark will get this engine to what it should have been in the first place.

 

You have chosen wisely…..

Jebby

 

Should I choose a different cam?

 

I feel your frustration and I am in the process of building a similar motor but with a blower and did get a cam spec quote from Jones cam designs as well and if you are planning on changing cam specs watch the you tube video from power nation on there 3 stage build on a 406, I am sure you will resolve the issues you are having and looking forward to your end result .

 

Where you happy with the first one? I would think with a 406 you could go a little bigger without any negative impacts. I'm running a 230/236 110LSA hyd roller on my 383 and still pull 12 inches of vacuum at 750 rpm, and a 2400 stall would have been fine (I'm running 3k) . It's a very streetable cam, pulls from 2200-5800. The 112 lsa version of the same cam would be pretty tame in 406.

 

Why, are you not satisfied with the current cam ? Looks to be nearly an exact copy of the one that Jim Barth (421TPI) installed in his new 396 sbc with the same heads.

 

I don’t understand why there is a lot of quality components in this engine that are built to take use and even moderate abuse. Yet you say you don’t do that. Don’t even rev it much. I guess what I’m saying if investing in quality components that are built for a purpose then put them to use.

That cam for a 406 IMO is way too small and the LSA is way too wide. I have a cam with almost the same duration, more lift and less LSA (108) in my 350. Good street manners and no less than 10” of vacuum @ 650 rpm. All vacuum components function.
A 406 is capable of delivering so much more than a 350. Don’t choke it with that little cam. So to answer your question, yes I would recommend changing the cam.

At least you could put that cam on a 108 or 106 LSA and really wake it up. I would have at least 230 something @.050 with a 106 LSA if it were mine. Overlap is a good thing given it’s the right amount. Too much is just that and too little is killing an engine’s potential.

what kind of CR does this engine have?

All education has it costs. Building a decent engine is an education. Even the “pros” get it wrong often enough. So I wouldn’t fret too much over this situation.

 

Compression ratio is 10.4:1.

Back when I had my 350, which was basically a ZZ4 short block, with AFR heads, and all very similar components, I ran some threads on this forum and got answers completely in all directions. The typically direction always goes for bigger and bigger cams. The engine was great,.......but the only way I could really get the engine to push me back in the seat was to take it to 5500 RPM in every gear, until of course by 4th gear.....I had reached the speed that I could drive on the street. I have posted multiple threads TRYING to explain what I want out of the engine and the car. When I decided to start over with the 406, I posted threads again on the subject. And the majority of people who posted on these threads constantly pushed for bigger heads, and bigger cams.

Then.....you have the subject of big blocks. And the very common thread to the big block story is the massive torque that they produce, all well below the RPM that a small block can produce equivalent torque. That sounded like what I wanted. So, here we are again......at a point where I might be able to explain it.....once again.

What I want out of the engine, in this car, is to be able to be pushed back into the seat when I push down on the gas pedal. I want to be able to feel the back of the seat pushing hard against my back......accelerating me and the car forward BIG TIME. Its not that I want to see how FAST I can go......its about how quickly I can get up to speed. I really don't need a car to go 100 mph.....because I drive on the streets and roads of Pennsylvania. And I am not interested in crashing this car....or dying in it. So.....question is....how do I achieve this goal of being pushed back in the seat. ONE way is to leave the car in first gear until I hit 5500 RPM, then shift into second....until 5500 RPM, and then 3rd.......IF I could even get there before I hit 70 mph. I believe that is the way race car drivers like to play this game, and I guess what is done at drag racing.....but, for me, it just seems weak that you have to resort to RPM to make it happen......imagine if you could get the SAME acceleration with less RPM. Why is that a bad goal? Is it because so many just want to make alot of noise?

What I want is for the car to do this WITHOUT needing 5500 RPM. Its that simple. And from my understanding, it is big TORQUE that makes that happen. That is why big blocks do this. So, that is the baseline that I put out there for Mike Jones to select and grind a cam. And,.....it was pretty impressive, and fun to drive.

For those that thing I need a bigger cam....am I going to have more, or less, of what I want? That is really my question. I suspect I will get the same answers.....which is that I need a bigger cam and bigger heads......and then, rev it to 5500. Honestly.....I would like to have two cars, one with my cam,.....and one with the cam everyone wants me to have. I could tell you which one I want after I drove both. Right now, I am questioning myself that I might be limiting myself......and my goal of being pushed back in the seat might better be had with a bigger cam??? OR....would I end up only getting that if I pushed the RPM up the scale......and then I am back to where I started. It just seems to me that most people think the only way to accelerate quickly is pushing the pedal to the floor.

Analogy I have previously used. I am a Harley guy......and would not want any other bike. With the big torque, low RPM engines they have.....when you crack the throttle you can almost feel each pulse pushing the bike forward one stroke at a time. I love it. But truth is,.....if you want to go fast, you buy a Japanese sport bike, crank it to 14,000 RPM, and you WILL go fast.........but I have no interest in that. . Now.......the Vette......I want Harley style power. Can anyone comprehend what I am saying?

 

Here is another angle. What HP / torque curve does it take to make a car go from zero to 50 in the shortest period of time? Is it done with a big cam, and running the RPM up to 5500-6500 RPM in each gear OR a smaller cam with a torque curve that comes up immediately and is flat the whole way to 4500 RPM. Which one accelerates you faster / pushes you back in the seat harder? That's really the bottom line.