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I agree with you, for the most part. But, over the years on this forum and others, people have twisted half shafts, broken u-joints, broken gearboxes,.......all with high RPM clutch dumps. I guess you would say that they did not build the car properly....and you would be right. But, I still call that abuse. Lets not argue. I understand your point. I am just a guy that leans towards a little more gentle approach to my machines. I am one of these folks that sees the "soul" in the machine, and treat is as I expect to be treated in return. I am just being a little defensive.....caused I have been ridiculed for building a high performance engine,....and NOT thrashing it. No matter how you put it.....even if stuff is built tough.....its harder on the parts when you push the limits. I prefer to not do that.
And you mentioned the "wear" thing......that ALSO comes into play. I put 8000 miles on the Vette, 5000 miles on the motorcycle....this summer. I use my stuff, and would like it to go the distance. I think my way of treating my Harley to 137,000 miles without ONE breakdown or one failure proves something. According to some, Harleys are junk. I think my experience says otherwise. This DAMN 406 was supposed to be a good, long lasting engine.......and at no fault of my own, it has not been. I just hope most of the good stuff I paid for can be re-used once Vortecpro checks it out.
I would not disagree with most of that. dumping a clutch at high RPM without taking up the lash first would be abuse IMO, or at least not understanding the physics involved in doing such things. Even if it's built to take the high RPM drops, It won't be built to take the repeated severe lash of shock loading of the gears and connecting points of the drive train if you do so.
To each his own. I don't fault a guy for taking care of his equipment. But, babying it to the extreme is not in my play book if it's built to take more.
You fly a transport category aircraft within it's intended limits which cannot be compared to the limits of an aerobatic aircraft. Two different purposes two different ways of flying. One cannot be compared to the other by using a single standard.
I have been searching forums, via Google, about this cracking / popping noise with heater on...and one possible issue may be that the heater shutoff valve is failing / cycling....or I have a vacuum problem. If at idle, when the vacuum is highest, which is when I hear the noise, the shutoff valve is intermittently failing and cycling open and closing, it would possibly open, allowing coolant to flow, and then suddenly failing, and closing, which would create a pulse in the system......and the cracking noise is the sudden pulse opening or closing the thermostat, banging the seat and making the noise. The sound definitely comes from the thermostat housing. Its an NOS factory Non-AC coolant heater shutoff valve I found.
If your block is designed without a coolant bypass you should drill 4 holes in your t-stat. The coolant bypass in a block like that would be controlled by a heater control valve that has 4 ports on it acting as the bypass when the heater is off. The correct one will look like similar to an "H". I am assuming your hearing an over temp purging when opening your heater control valve?
I am very easy on my possessions. Despite building this 406 with all these good parts, I don't believe in hammering on my stuff.....and that is why it lasts as long as it does. I can accelerate quickly and smoothly, but no max RPM clutch drops for me and unlikely my engine will ever see 6000 RPM. Never spun the tires.....just not interested. I treat my equipment well....always have, always will. So I think / hope my Borg Super T10 will hold up fine. Same with the Big Block Vortecpro will build for my 69 Corvette.....which will have the original Muncie 4 speed, rebuilt. Just because you have a ton of power does not mean you have to use all of it in a harsh way. Who makes those rules? It surprises me when people abuse their equipment, and then complain because it broke. Maybe some don't understand me, but it works for me. Its my money, my car.
My 2004 Harley Road King has 137,000 miles on it,.....all with me riding it,.....original clutch, original engine, original drive belt, original primary chain. I decided last fall to go ahead and upgrade the cylinders to bigger cubic inch, and get the bottom end beefed up.......not because it needed it, because it was running good, but I just thought it was time. And I will enjoy the new torquier engine.......BUT, will still never exceed 60 mph. never will abuse it, and I will continue to ride it like I did the first 137,000 miles....loving every mile of it. It NEVER once left me on the side of the road, frankly it never quit running well. My money, my bike. Served me well.
Not sure why people don't understand that you CAN build a high performance motor, and still treat it well. Its a street car.....not a drag racer. I could have saved a ton of money by just rebuilding my stock 350, which still sits in my basement,.....and just drove the car with that.......but that 180 HP just would not be as fun. In fact,.....I suggest that building a high performance torque monster engine, and then treating it well is FAR better choice than a stock 180 HP engine that I would have had to thrash to get the equivalent fun out of it.
In my 40 years of working on airplanes, cars and motorcycles,.....it is my belief you have to do good preventative maintenance, and treat the equipment well,.....if you want it to work well, and last a long time.
I drive my stuff similar to you I do roll on heavy starts and love to row through the gears, right now I building up a 406 for my blower motor starting with a dart little m block.
I would not disagree with most of that. dumping a clutch at high RPM without taking up the lash first would be abuse IMO, or at least not understanding the physics involved in doing such things. Even if it's built to take the high RPM drops, It won't be built to take the repeated severe lash of shock loading of the gears and connecting points of the drive train if you do so.
To each his own. I don't fault a guy for taking care of his equipment. But, babying it to the extreme is not in my play book if it's built to take more.
You fly a transport category aircraft within it's intended limits which cannot be compared to the limits of an aerobatic aircraft. Two different purposes two different ways of flying. One cannot be compared to the other by using a single standard.
Its all good. Thanks for the conversation.......isn't it cool that a bunch of guys who may never meet in person can have a talk about the cars we love. We are all different, but share something. Happy New Year.
If your block is designed without a coolant bypass you should drill 4 holes in your t-stat. The coolant bypass in a block like that would be controlled by a heater control valve that has 4 ports on it acting as the bypass when the heater is off. The correct one will look like similar to an "H". I am assuming your hearing an over temp purging when opening your heater control valve?
I have installed a NOS GM heater control valve that is the correct PN for my car. I also drilled the thermostat with two holes. Maybe I need more?? If this was a GM block, instead of a Dart SHP block, I would have the coolant bypass GM designed in these blocks.....the bottom hole on the right water pump pad is the bypass. I wish Dart would have just done the same......not sure why they didn't. I am curious if anyone else with a Dart SHP block.....and the factory heater system connected, have this problem?? Nobody yet has responded.
EDIT: Actually....as I read your post again. maybe the factory heater control valve IS the problem, because it is NOT the H type valve you are talking about. If there is a heater control valve with some type of built in bypass,.....I would like a part number to try. It makes sense for a block like Dart SHP that does not have a bypass feature. Anyone know of a valve that does this?
EDIT AGAIN: The cracking / popping / snapping noise NEVER ENDS as long as the heater is selected on...i.e......its not just a momentary thing. SO, I still am not sure what the problem is. I thought possible this vacuum control NOS heater control valve is simply bad, and opening / closing randomly at idle......creating pulses in the system. I can hear it, and feel it in the heater hose going to the intake manifold. The noise is focused at the thermostat housing.....which could be the flow pulses hammering on the thermostat, making the noise.?????????????
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Dec 31, 2021 at 07:34 PM.
I would just drill a couple more holes in the t-stat and see if it resolves your issue. Or even better leave it out for a test.
I could try that......but another point.....this noise occurs WAY after the engine is warmed up. And once the engine is hot, would there not be a constant flow of coolant past the thermostat? From everything I read, the coolant bypass feature is necessary BEFORE the thermostat opens because essentially no water is flow until it opens Once its open, then there is a circulation. Yet.....I still have the problem every time I turn the heater on. With heater OFF.....there is no cracking / popping / snapping.
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FYI Fluke meter makes a meter with a thermistor in the box and I will take the top hose off and push it in the goose neck and take accurate measurements w/wo t-stat.
May 2022 UPDATE - The engine has started to be disassembled, and the initial look is not good. The cam has pitting / tracking, valve stems damaged, lifters tracking, and excessive carbon / oil on top of all the pistons.
The rear galley plugs were NOT tight, so that explains the oil leak. Something as simple as NOT properly tightening galley plugs sure does not give me confidence in the builder. The valve train problem is a major failure and unacceptable.......the builder should have known the valve spring pressures were too high for stock lifters and valvetrain.
Not very happy after spending the money I did to have an engine with just 8000 miles in this condition. What I do know is that I most likely will NOT get to put a single mile on this car this year.
The other decision I have made is to get Jody Haag to build me an M23Z 4-speed to replace the factory Borg T-10. The deposit is made, and Jody is working on it. Going with his recommendation of 2.99 first gear, and balanced 2nd and 3rd ratios for even RPM drops on shift. Also going lighter flywheel, as he recommended. Considered TKX, but just don't want it. I prefer the old school 4-speed.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Jul 28, 2022 at 06:54 AM.
maybe scare up a runner and throw it in for the summer. 305-350-307-anything. then later your good engine will know you have a spare and behave itself accordingly...
Did i read earlier in this thread that you have the original 350 in your basement? maybe put that in for the summer if it's going to be a while before Mark finishes your engine.
June 9th Update.......the initial quick inspection of the engine shows wear on the original "Mike" Jones cam, so a new cam is going to be installed. So "Mark" Jones (VortecPro) has selected and ordered a new cam for this rebuild. He has previously built a 406 SBC with this cam, with good results and is his recommendation. The cam is a 234/238 @ 0.050, 110 LSA hydraulic roller. This should be quite different than the 224/228 @ 0.050, 112 LSA Mike Jones roller cam. Valve springs, lifters, etc. will be all replaced as necessary and at the right spec's for this engine.....i.e., the way it should have been done the first time.
Once Mark starts working on the engine, there will be further updates. I am very interested in what he finds in the AFR 195 race heads. There are obvious problems on the valve tips. He is also going to see how well AFR did on the valve seats. He is essentially starting over on a complete rebuild.
Jody Haag has finished my M23Z 4-speeds for both this car, and the 69.......and I will be picking them up in a few weeks. I will now have a stout, original design 4-speed in the car....just the way I want it.
As for the heater pinging noise.....I intend to bypass the heater core to start, and maybe replace the factory vacuum shutoff with a manual shutoff. The internal coolant leak and oil leak problems should be resolved with the VortecPro rebuild.
I am very hopeful that with all this work and money, I will have the car exactly where I want it......powerful, leak free and reliable for my purposes. And then I will put LOTS of miles on it.
Last edited by Shovels and Vettes; Jun 9, 2022 at 07:25 AM.
June 9th Update.......the initial quick inspection of the engine shows wear on the original "Mike" Jones cam, so a new cam is going to be installed. So "Mark" Jones (VortecPro) has selected and ordered a new cam for this rebuild. He has previously built a 406 SBC with this cam, with good results and is his recommendation. The cam is a 234/238 @ 0.050, 110 LSA hydraulic roller. This should be quite different than the 224/228 @ 0.050, 112 LSA Mike Jones roller cam. Valve springs, lifters, etc. will be all replaced as necessary and at the right spec's for this engine.....i.e., the way it should have been done the first time.
Once Mark starts working on the engine, there will be further updates. I am very interested in what he finds in the AFR 195 race heads. There are obvious problems on the valve tips. He is also going to see how well AFR did on the valve seats. He is essentially starting over on a complete rebuild.
Jody Haag has finished my M23Z 4-speeds for both this car, and the 69.......and I will be picking them up in a few weeks. I will now have a stout, original design 4-speed in the car....just the way I want it.
As for the heater pinging noise.....I intend to bypass the heater core to start, and maybe replace the factory vacuum shutoff with a manual shutoff. The internal coolant leak and oil leak problems should be resolved with the VortecPro rebuild.
I am very hopeful that with all this work and money, I will have the car exactly where I want it......powerful, leak free and reliable for my purposes. And then I will put LOTS of miles on it.
Further updates: After doing a block prep the block went onto the surfacer and I found some variance in the deck heights, and the tilt of the decks out .005, fortunately this was able to be corrected. Deck height was then set.
Picking up my new Autogear M23Z 4-speed transmission this morning from Jody’s Transmission. He built it with 2.99 first gear ratio, and will be using McCloud 24 lb flywheel. One step closer.
I bolt my TQ plate on the block to clean up the hone and find .0075-.008 piston to wall clearance to my surprise, theres no excuse for this kind of work, I'am really sorry Jeff I never expected to find this problem. I will ck for out of round and report back later. Main saddles are on the high side of the spec, which will be ok, we might have to juggle some bearings to get it right.
It is clear now that both the builder and the machine shop made huge mistakes. Very sad. I spent over $10,000 on this engine the first time. And I was referred to this builder here on this forum. So......buyer beware. I am obviously very unhappy about this, and it has cost me not only alot of money, but also has taken the car away from a year's driving season.
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