The install is done and something is not right. It was not difficult to install but with dougs side pipe headers I did need to do a small amount of "clearancing". The steering feels very loose and twitchy. Also feels notchy if that is actually a word. I know it needs to be aligned but it drives very poorly. I replaced the power steering pump at the same time with a reman. Cardone 20-6886 from summit. I have seen some posts talking about too much pump pressure and borgeson sells a kit to reduce it. I also found several inline flow valves that people say work when converting to rack and pinion systems that require less flow/pressure. I am going to try one to see if it helps. Any Other suggestions?

 

What’s your caster set to? Too little can cause a feeling of twitchyness at high speeds

 

What''s your caster?

Let us know how it feels when you have about 6 degrees of positive caster.

If possible, use the outer "manual" holes on the steering arms, though not all C3s have them.

 

I have no idea what my caster is. The car drove way better prior to the borgeson box. I was just tired of chasing leaks. I will have it aligned this week

 

The only thing the borgenson changes about steering feel is the ratio.

 

I don't know about that. If that is so true why does Leigh have a thread going on improving the feel of these boxes.
And yes they can be revalved or resprung or something. To get the feel correct, but it sounds expensive. Perhaps read that thread.
And keep in mind that the Borgeson box is a Jeep box modified to fit a Corvette. The internals are still set up for the Jeep.

 

Sounds like you just got a bad box

 

Maybe.

The twitchiness, the fast ratio, and the possible need to adjust the line pressure (in addition to an alignment)? That's expected.

But loose and notchy? I haven't experienced that. Give Borgeson a call!

 

I bought a pressure reducing fitting from Turn One. It helped a lot.

 

There are so many things that affect steering feel, but...

That phrase leads me to believe you may not have the box centered. There is a high point on the gears, it is pretty narrow, and it is dead center.
When you install a new box it is easy to get it say 1 or 2" off center.
If you miss it by an inch or more, you could have an inch of slop in your steering wheel.

To center the system I would not depend on an alignment shop to do this. Maybe a race shop. Or at home.
To center the box you must center the box first, with nothing connected to it, go lock to lock, then exactly halfway in between. Mark the input shaft with a model paint brush, straight up.
Then line up the steering wheel shaft, it should have a mark inside the car also, straight up.
Steering wheel next.
Dead last is the tire rod ends.

If the box is off-center you will have slop.
If the steering shaft alone is off-center, one of the turn signals may not turn off well.
You really can't mess up the box-to-shaft alignment with the factory flats. or key on the rag joint.
But depending on which rag or u-joint adapter you use, you may not have a flat to align it for you, if so you will have to do it yourself.

Two other mods to cure the twitchiness is more Caster and use the outer (manual) steering arm holes.
A third thing is to change your flow restrictor in your pump.

The Borgeson box is so fast, it is as fast as a new C8 or Viper if you use the manual holes. With the PS inner holes, it will be faster than any other street car, and could easily be called "twitchy". And both of those cars use 6-8* caster and heavier / stiffer valving, so they feel more steady / solid. With some more "weight" ours may feel fine that way, but not when it is rather light, and with only 2-3* caster. And back to back with the OEM steering there is a huge speed difference, like 20%. It may just take some time getting used to it.

Few are going to want to spend the extra money to revalve the Borgeson to race car specs, but I did. The steering firmness at the wheel is 28-30 in-lbs (3.7 lbs), about the same as stock steering. But with the quicker ratio I wanted it firmer, like a newer car or firmer, so I went up 50% in firmness with a thicker torsion bar, to 45 in-lb ( or 6 lbs) at the wheel rim.

A 14" diameter wheel would also help you slow the steering down 7%.

You have lots of options to correct the issue.

If you want to tune the pump out put flow valve, refer to post #29 in this thread. Too much flow makes it twitchy. And you just changed th e pump and the valve.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...geson-box.html
There is a procedure in post 29 to identify the ideal flow valve for your car, but it is probably either 2.0 or 2.5 gpm.
Some rebuilt boxes have a higher valve. You don't want that.

 

because hes going after a non stock racing feel setup ?
The borgeson box used for the c3 may have come from a jeep but I believe its a design evolution of the older saginaw box that wasnt invented yet at the time of the c3s production. The stock c3 steering was designed in the 1950s and was an obsolete c2 carryover when the first c3 rolled off the line but used for cost and layout compromises. Better things come along... Again, same reason you dont see many classics running bias ply tires. (To be fair some love them and choose to run them because they are part of the cars character)

I just finished a borgeson upgrade and it gave me more clearance with my sidepipes than the stock steering box which I had to dent a primary for.

I added tubular a arms with somewhere between 4-6 degrees of caster which I dont yet have the specifics on because I havent had an alignment dont yet But I am extremely pleased with the borgeson steering on my car with the additional castor running the stock steering pump 2.5gpm control valve and spring (which changed on c3s from year to year).
My steering takes a bit more effort just like the steering on my old z51 c4 or even the steering on my camry does at speed and it now wants to center itself instead of having that all over the road feel and overboosted feel.

 

Well I think Leigh did a pretty good job of explaining it just before this last post.
Now I of course run a extremely well rebuilt stock box. Even though it is 1950's tech.
And I run offset and slotted upper A arm shafts, (Thanks again Leigh). Which basically give me a poor mans way of achieving more caster. Same as your tubular A arms.
My steering isn't light, or twitchy and most certainly self centers.
So. While I truly believe many will love there Borgeson steering setup, perhaps if you only made one change at a time you could be more objective.
Most believe the Borgeson truly transforms their car. So the OP here has a issue to iron out.
That's all.
And some of us really like the factory steering once it's setup correctly without all the Freeplay many complain about.
Most put a Borgeson on a car with worn and leaky power steering.
How many take a system that is working perfectly and install a Borgeson?

 

These guys definitely know the geometry better than I do and not sure this helps.
I have installed three of these in a 64, 69 and 80, all improvements in my opinion... yes a bit more responsive to me but for normal driving not greatly noticeable.
I always make sure im centered through the process starting with the vehicles steering components, steering wheel and making sure the box is centered however on my last one as i was installing I was off a few splines when connecting the rag joint, i drove the car after and could feel it... frankly it felt twitchy and looser at the same time if thats possible, i realized what i had done... disconnected the rag joint again and re-centered it and problem was solved.

 

I do agree the castor likely does contribute to a lot of the positive change and I also did not have any free play in my old stock setup after rebuilding and replacing many components like bearings and rag joint and of course adjusting the play out of the steering box.

Btw I responded before reading the entire thread where Leigh once again mentioned his goals before I responded to the question you asked so but my point there was if you know he has been on a quest to modify the borgeson box as mentioned in multiple threads you should have also read why and that using that as an example was not really a fair example.

Maybe its because I owned many jeeps with tight steering ratios or maybe it was my last corvette with the 13:1 z51 performance steering ratio but I love the tighter ratio of the borgeson on my car.

I have read in a few older threads on the borgeson that the system can give a uneven/rough jagged feel if used with a control valve thats outside of the range specified by borgeson Its likely the rebuild power steering box has the standard control valve which I believe has a much higher GPM rating than any of the c3 vette steering pumps. Luckily its an easy part to swap while mounted in the car. It also took me a bit of exercising the steering to get all the air out after assembly myself.

 

Thanks to everyone that replied. I know that my steering wheel is off center and plan on addressing that. I spoke with someone at Borgeson this morning and he said the usual culprit of the symptoms I am describing is air trapped in the system. He said that a bad, poorly remanufactered pump could also be the problem. Too much or too little pressure. 1100 to 1200psi and 3-3.5 GPM is what they recommend. He said if everything else is right and I want them too look at the box they will. I will triple check everything. Thanks again for all the replies

 

Air can be a real PIA to get rid of in some systems. I have a 1968 C3 and spent a lot of money re-building or replacing the parts in the steering system. Even after the new parts were installed I wasn't that impressed so I then converted my steering system to a Power Rack and Pinion from Steeroids. I also put on a Serpentine belt conversion from March performance. I then used a new power steering fluid pump and a external reservoir to double the volume of P.S. fluid used in the car allowing the P.S. fluid temperatures to stay lower. Then I started having problems with flow rates so I got in touch with the folks at TURN ONE and they helped me get the bugs out of my system. The folks at Turn One specialize in steering equipment and they KNOW steering systems. In my Humble opinion they are The very best of the steering companies and their knowledge is amazing!

Once the flow rate was close then I started testing the system and found that it to had air inside the system. I was told to turn the wheel from one side to the other and do it 10-15 times with the wheels off the ground with the engine running to purge the air. After a few minutes the air was no longer a problem. This is on a Rack and Pinion and not the Borgeson. I could tell when the air was out as the returning fluid was clear and free of bubbles where in the beginning the bubbles were tiny and plentiful.

The rack and pinion eliminated any dead spots I had in my steering system. Turn One helped me resolve my issues and the car steers much nicer with the Power Rack and Pinion. Next I want to try an electric steering system so I can eliminate the hydraulic power steering and remove even more junk off the front of the engine. Less junk means better airflow around the engine and a happier Corvette in the long haul.

Call TURN ONE and get their thoughts if nothing else. They speak power steering fluently.

 

Glad you are on-track to solve it.
Yes flow and pressure are key.
However flow is much more important than pressure.
Normal operating pressure is only around ~150psi.
Extreme pressures are never reached unless you hold the system at it's limits.
The flow controls the normal pressure.
You can try 2.5, 3.0 or 3.5 GPM flow restrictors, they are cheap, and they have all been suggested.
You basically want the smallest one that will not give you any "hitching" or "jerking" when you move the wheel very quickly.
Extra flow makes it more "boosted", and heats the fluid more.
Turn one has them, at around $50.
https://turnonesteering.com/product/...ow-restrictor/
If you are just cruising, go for lower flow.
If you are autocrossing, you will quickly find out if it is too low.

Let us know which one works for you!
So we can all learn.

 

This is the one i am going to try. Will be delivered tomorrow

 

Well arh it sounds like you are heading off in the right direction!

The power steering system on my 1988 C4 Corvette Coupe is the standard rack and pinion. It turns out that they fail often and are another PIA to remove and replace. A Turn One employee told me to just increase the volumeof the power steering fluid system and this will help keep the racks from damaging the seals. The same logic applies to our older original C3's and if you can spin a wrench then you should be able to install a cooler into your existing system. The P.S. reservoir in my C3 system holds several times the volume of fluid and the longer hoses all help keep my P.S. fluid from getting hot enough for the fluid to be affected.

On my 1968 C3 bb convertible I have a aftermarket power steering reservoir which is connected to the power steering pump and rack and pinion . I made a set of AN Braided hoses for the power steering system and ran them as I saw fit to keep them cooler. Having long tube headers makes the hoses very important but being exposed to the extreme heat is solved by using DEI Insulation on the power steering hoses. The tube closest to the headers has even higher temperature protection and has no problem while the car is moving but sitting in traffic could see nasty high temperatures. I might make a aluminum plate to help block the heat or find a different orientation for the pump so the inlet and outlet are in better places to keep cool. I have monitoring the electric power steering kits out there, I would love a modern tight feeling steering like new cars with NONE of the hydraulic issues of Corvettes of yesterday.

 

I knew there was one out there for $25. Good find!
That could very easily solve your issue.

Once you get it in, obviously purge the air out.
Then stress test it.
It should be fine at normal steering.
Stress test by driving like a madman, like an autocross, very quick & large steering inputs, right then left.
If it stutters there you "may" need more flow.
If you drive it like that.
But if you never drive it like that, it may not matter at all!

The lower flow will also help keep the coolant cooler.
I will also be adding a simple solid line "loop" on my car, out in the airflow somewhere.
To help with the cooling. The stock PS system has almost zero cooling ability. So keeping heat out of it is paramount.
I have seen PS pumps boil over, and pumps burn up in a few weeks, on other guys cars. But they were convinced more flow was "better" somehow.
Also because I did it before, on a very competitive racer, and it worked well there. Mine never even got that hot.
It is probably not even needed here, but hey why not?