I'll take that as a no, you are not going to name names.

You are unable or unwilling to yourself do what you unrealistically demand of others.


...and guess what? I don't have to join the Taliban to have an opinion about them either. Aint it great?

First you say:
Then you say over and over:
Do you actually believe ordinary folks go around asking people for their names to track in some sort of little black book to have at the ready should some voice over the web demand we 'name names'? Get real man. Some of us don't lead lives of tracking names, maintaining blacklists of banned judges and so forth.

Is this your societal process of identifying judges who "do a lousy job" so you can then banish them from judging? At best such information would be antecdotal at worst it would be embarassing to presumed innocent parties. No you are not getting any names.


I've explained my error previously.

I've shared what facts I can as I understand them to be and my opinions and questions based on those facts. I'm not going to rub anybodies noses in it. Applying a label such as "BS" doesn't really change change anything one way or the other.

Hmmmm, "slander" and "own risk" in the same sentence...? Ah yes the ol' implied slander lawsuit threat.


I backed it up 2 or 3 posts ago. and then again. SO what do you want me to do? Back up my backups? Next will you be triple-daring me?


Perhaps the real answer is that the mantra of demanding one to 'name names' is a tactic to deflect conversation from the bigger picture of issues.


Post after post you make this same ol claim but have not shown a single quote that backs this spin up.

FACT: I corroborated another forum members point about profit motivations - Supporting FACT: many owners have told me they seek an award so as to enhance the value of their car for resale purposes. FACT: To that end I have cracked open the want adds and noted the enhanced asking prices when an award is listed in the car's description. Robert also agreed with this.

FACT: I also have observed that a car such a '67 BB has received a greater degree of scrutiny including additional judges and magnifying glasses (YES! folks magnifying glasses) with regards to its pad than a less valuable base C3. FACT: This is an essentially identical phenomenon that others have also seen and related to me suggesting to me this is not limited to my own isolated observations as a dispassionate observer. My opinion is that this occurs for one of two reasons: A) the owner has a reputation as a counterfeiter or restamper or whatever or B) the car is high-dollar and more suspect in configuration of being fake for monetary gain. I do have a problem reconciling my obervations and others with my understanding of the standards. FACT: Those manuals contain double standards that anyone can read for themselves.

Label them all lies and cast me in this grand anti-society plot you seem to believe exists. But as you again repeat the now predictable mantra of 'lies lies lies' - perhaps we should ask ourselves this - given that different unassociated people seem to make such similar observations over so many years (you heard this same stuff 16 years ago you said) and in so many different places - why? Is it all coincidence? Or a conspiracy? Or...?

Your assumption of 'knowing details' is in error - like many ordinary folks, I have a day job and I do not go around maintaining some list of names to feed your desire to conduct a witch hunt at a moment's notice based on observations from the past in order to weed out judges in your society that you say do a "lousy job". Call me a liar as you wish but do you own dirty work. Whether I have any names or not - you're not getting them.


What unsubstantiated accusations?

 

I think he should tell that to the mouthpieces retained by the society and the individuals who are the subject of their current interest in this thread.

Some? More like all. Has anyone ever seen a car that has a "97% (plus) score" which did NOT slather itself in such award claims when listed, advertised, auctioned or whatever. I"m not saying it's wrong or right - just the characterization of 'some' is completely innacurate.


[QUOTE=Rowdy Rat]It's all about integrity.

If it is then why does Rowdy Rat, over and over and over say that I have made all these "accusations" yet fail to point out one single specific statement that validates his claims that I do nothing but blanketly accuse an entire organization?


That's right - Rowdy Rat brought up ethics and what not and spin it as if I'm making these accusation. Yet where did I make these accusations?

I HAVE asked questions such as:

Can someone who: sells Corvettes, restores Corvettes for others for profit, provides a fee based Corvette evaluation service for buyers, provide Corvette finder services, manufactures Corvette parts, sells Corvette parts or distributes Corvette parts wholesale or othwerise involved in a Corvette hobby related business as a significant source of personal income - also at the same time eligible to be a judge, team leader, board member, officer or other influential person in authority within a society? Yes or No?

It's NOT an accusation as to ethics no matter how many times Rowdy Randy howls that it is.

It's a simple yes or no question.

Yes?

or No?

It doesn't require a defensive retort as if it is an accusation. It doesn't require Rowdy Rat to apply personal labels to me or others or imply threats of slander lawsuits. It simply requires that he type in a simple 'yes' or 'no'. He can also continue to ignore the question.

It's a question that if it continues to go unanswered in this never ending torrent of 'accusation spin' makes it all the more curious to many of us.

It's a question similar to what one might fairly ask of a property owner's association, local, state or federal elected officials etc. And it's certainly IMHO reasonable to ask of a car club. Especially a car club involved in an award system that undeniably carries implications of monetary value that is in the 1000s of dollars.


I hear a lot of talk about integrity and ethics from Rowdy Rat. These are words he raised, not me. But if one is confident in these opinions - i don't see why one would be 'threatened' as Rowdy Rat seems to be, by a simple reasonable question.

Yes? Or no?


That is an acknowledgement that while these people are the most moral ehtical people above reproach and of the highest integrity - that there is or was a problem and the solution is this form of banishment from judging.

But I wonder, how are such "lousy" judging jobs identified? Is there a review feedback sheet filled out by the owner after it's over?

Given all the bluster I hear about integrity - surely the process of identifying and removing judges who do a 'lousy' job is a transparent one above board and beyond reproach isnt' it?

Perhaps Rowdy Rat will elaborate and set us ignorant types straight about all the integrity and ethics of identifying a judge doing a lousy job and how s/he is removed from future judging?

Again it's NOT an accusation - it's a request to elaborate. Talk is cheap and if someone wants to blab how ethical they and their great integrity - fine. But why not go beyond the talk and actually SHOW US how its' all so ethical and such?

Nope - folks that's just plain unrealistic spin - nobody is trying to paint everyone in an entire organization anything. I'm asking some questions about policy or code of conduct.

This is the actual statement where Rowdy Rat himself introduces these words "ethics" and "integrity" which he himself has then and continues to claim I have assaulted. Rowdy Rat does acknowledge that a process exists to identify and remove judges who do a "lousy job".

Surely I hope he can tell us their process for identifying the judges doing "lousy jobs". Surely it's not dependent upon badgering names on a public forum on the internet? Given all his talk of ethics there has a better system in place to identify the 'lousy jobs' that is fair to both the judge and the car owner that received the lousy job?

Please Rowdy Rat tell us badgering names out of individuals on a public forum is not it. Tell us that all this talk of ethics and such doesn't come down to this? Because so far that's all we've got to go on.

I'm just amazed to read about the things I am supposed to have said. I'll ask again but I'm starting to lose hope - show me where I made this accusation.

 

Damn..found all the NCRS files on limewire..sweet. Download away....

 

i have a public profile so people can get a better sense of what i have done in essence a "bio" . i deliberated long and hard before posting it because of internet scams and abuse....it seems far fetched to say not having a public profile shows a lack of integrity...bob

 

Thanks Bob, I appreciate that. I was the victim of identity theft once - 'nuff said. I figure if I have something to contribute or an opinion to offer or a question to ask - the words can stand and be judged on their own merit - just my $0.02.

---

I believe the society maintains a database of 'counterfeit' Corvettes by VIN as well as (apparently) a list of judges that have done a lousy job. I also believe they maintain other lists and databases as well. Perhaps they want information about me for yet another list or to send to their mouthpieces?

And I can assure any society folks that the attacks directed at me and legal intimidation of others, to the contrary, are not going to diminish these questions... What are we afraid of here folks? A little disclosure and transparency?

 

You know what... I agree too!!!
I don't like to tell everyone..where I live...Who my kids are... who my wives are... etc..LOL Unless I feel comfortable with everyone... (But I'm cool with everyone here) So I'm happy... But privacy is an important issue.. and privacy should be respected..
Now I'm worried... Should I keep my V.I.N# protected from this site? Now I'm second guessing myself... LOL

 

Augustus,

How many wives do you have?

 

One is more than enough right now....LOL


Atleast she likes the Vette... She told me to get rid of my Camaro for a Vette.. Her quote "It looks classier!!.. it looks like a gentlemans car!!!"

I then said "Ya!"

I immediately sold my Camaro and bought a CORVETTE!!! LOL

 

Wow Norm you really got something stirred up here.

 

WOW; the NCRS has a bad reputation with the non-NCRS Vette enthusiasts, and their attempt to repair said not-deserved bad rep is to ... send lawyers ????

What a blunder. Yep; this will help them gain respect.


.

 

Indeed he has but I think that society has been trending towards acting this way for a long while now. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than a few former or long time society members that miss the perhaps more innocent old days. And now that we have the internet it's easier for us lesser organized unaffiliated types to gather and communicate amongst ourselves.

One reaps what one sews.

 

Ethics and integrity, a great moto for any organization. But I have heard things for years that I have not seen mentioned in this conversation.

I have heard conversation of cars having parts swapped from everyone in the club to one car that is going up for the "Judging" and then have them removed after the Top Flight or whatever award is awarded. Then the car is sold with sub-standard parts along with its pedigree of perfection at an inflated price. Is this what you are speaking of about indiscretions?

The Country Club boys are snooty as hell and then they come to us and want our dated/numbered parts for their perfect cars. $200 for correct valve cores? $200 more for the caps, and yesterday on e-bay a wing nut for only $51. It looks like they need us for their grave robbing doesn't it? Hell I'd a Give'm a dang wing nut..................

Why not tell them to orange peel'em like the came from the factory with the bonding seams showing instead of the perfection they try to sell everyone. They sure as heck weren't that clean and polished from the dealer. I have had several new Vettes and none were that perfect from the delivery truck I assure you. Give'm hell, they do us. One thing about it, we have a helluva good time.............. jim

 

I posted this in the other NCRS thread, but I think it is fitting for this thread as well. I still support the NCRS as a member because I agree with their bottom line, and that is to preserve the Corvette as it left the factory for the future generations to enjoy. I refuse to join them in any meetings, or events because of their snobbish attitudes.

My personal feeling for Vettes is that you own it, modify it as you see fit and drive it as it was meant to be by the designers, not trailer it every where for people to look at. The designers tested them on race tracks for performance, not trailered around to see how they looked on a flatbed.

This is from the other thread:

When the national NCRS meeting was held in Galveston, TX a few years ago, I took my son to see the Vettes they have on display. I got very interested in what they were about, and even became a member.

I will never forget how uptight most of them came across to me. My son was very interested in a couple of the Vettes on display, and asked questions about them, only to be snubb off because they were too busy cleaning their cars and did not have the time to talk to a 10 year old kid. I thought this was somewhat strange, and thought maybe because they had been on the road for several days were just tired.

I was talking with a few of the people there, and when I said the word "Vette", I was corrected that they are called "Corvettes" and not Vettes. I was beginning to wish I could get my membership dues back.

I think the NCRS is doing a noble thing in keeping the Vette history for future generations, but I think they need to lighten up and accept all Vette lovers as one big family even though we do not wear the same golf hat as they do.


www.bigdogvettes.com

 

I'LL NEVER FORGET ...I was at a big Corvette show and a father and his son (about 10 or 11) were admiring my car. The son was pointing things out to his dad ("Dad look at this" "Dad look at that"). I don't do this ALL the time, but the boy seemed very interested and new certain things about the car. So I asked him "Would you like to sit in the car?" Words can not describe the boys face when he was sitting in the car and made me feel pretty good also. The father shook my hand and thought that was pretty cool. I said it's way cool how knowledgable your son is at his age.

 

LottaHP .... You are a good guy!!!

You have just won the heart of a future Corvette/Vette lover... He will never forget sitting in your car...and his father was probably impressed with your generosity...

 

 

i always to do this, the kids are too scared to touch anything and kids get a great big smile and thier parents take pictures....i have more fun then they do.....what fun is looking at car when you can get in it???

 

First and foremost, your logo seems to clearly be a parody of their logo and organization, and Parodies are not infringements. Look at Saturday Night Live and all the people and products they've parodied over the years, and they've clearly made money doing so.

I'm not an attorney. But having been in the advertising field for many years as a commercial designer, and a business owner who holds a couple of trademarks myself, I know a little about copyrights, trademarks, and of what their owners can and cannot do.

The parody issue aside: They can get their lawyers to send you all the cease and desist letters they care to pay for. But in order to really do anything about it, first of all they'd have to prove you use your logo for commercial gain. Second, they would have to prove that your use of YOUR logo caused them harm or financial loss in some way. And to do that they would have to make the case that someone would mistake you for them.

Finally, trademarks normally only apply to a particular field of business. If the XYZ company makes clothing, and there's another XYZ company that makes industrial cogs, there respective trademarks do not infringe upon each other because they are not competitors for the same market.

MY ADVICE: I'd fire off a letter back to them taking the Parody stance and leave it at that. They can bully you but I don't think they have a leg to stand on legally.

 

I agree with you Matt but in this matter I do not stand alone. I have already won a Copyright infringement case. At that time my lawyer said "you have a 99.9% chance of winning, but with a jury you just never know". I have a wife, child and an 84 year old Grandmother that depend on me. It would be irresponsible of me to risk their well being on a principle. I'm sure this is what they were most likely counting on. It really sucks what an army of lawyers can make you do, but that's life in the big city.

What is limewire?

BTW, I'd show you a Calvin peeing on four random letters of the alphabet sticker design, but I'm affraid of getting a letter from the Calvin lawyers.

How do you think they get away with that? Do you think Ford and Chevy just have a sense of humor or that they can't do anything about it or that they don't want the bad press from attemting to do anything about it?

 

Just for fun, let's compare the two logos in question.

The only thing similar are the letters NCRS themselves in the color blue (but very different shades) and the fact that both logos contain flags of some sort. As has already been pointed out the use of N-C-R-S is harldy unique. In the parody logo, you can't even see enough of the flags to be absolutely sure what they are. We may read them as Chevy's crossed flags because our minds fill in the gaps for us, but our eyes do not actually see that. They are not there.

Finally, the National Corvette Restorers Society is not in business to sell stickers and t shirts (though they may sell them too, that's not their primary purpose or source of income). So where's the competition for market? How could they possibly prove damages?

BUT if you get cold feet and decide not to sell any more stickers or shirts, let me know and I'll take up the torch. I'll print them and sell them myself, and I'll have a lot of fun with their lawyers. Heck maybe several of us should do it.

By the way, the restaurant that dropped the name Chevy's probably just decided it was cheaper to change them name than to fight it. I doubt any court forced them to do so. They could have always claimed they named it after Chevy Chase (the place or the man) and not the car.