I buy this old car.
I put car in garage and start disassembling it.
I join Corvette forum for help in re-assembling it.
I read post by Paul where he says "The only way my '75 is an NCRS car is if it stands for Not Correctly Restored Stingray".
I think thats funny and it fits my car perfectly for a hoot I would like a sticker that says that on the back window of my car.
I draw up a design and post it on the forum asking if someone could make me a sticker of it.
With the input of many forum members I create several other versions but I don't get a sticker.
Norm sees design and wants a sticker too so he IM's me and tries to order one. I don't have any. and tell him I don't have stickers just the design. He IM's me back and asks where to send the money. Once I convince him that I don't have any stickers he asks if he can use the design and make a sticker for himself. Yeah Norm no problem have at it.
Norm makes sticker and offers it to others.
Others like it and ask for T-shirts.
Norm being a nice guy makes T-shirts.
Someone in the National Corvette Restorers Society sees design and takes offense. They somehow believe that the design is disrespectful to their organization. This must be stopped. How dare they disrespect our organization.
Instead of contacting the parties involved and saying if you do something for me I'll do something for you they get their lawyers to claim rights they do not have, make demands to not utter the the 4 letters that they own anywhere under any circumstances and threaten litigation if this disrespect continues.
I think, you know I volunteered my life to protect the rights of the citizens of this great nation once. I don't think that I want to willingly surrender even a small piece of my right to freedom of speech.

......fast forward several years
My rights were only as good as my ability to defend them against an army of lawyers so after emerging from federal prison I finally finish re-assembling my old car and put sticker on back window.

I only drew a picture. It is not a copy of any other picture. It is only a picture and nothing more. It honestly had nothing to do with the National Corvette Restorers Society, only with me and my car. If I don't have the right to draw pictures of things that I like and share them with others then I have been verry misinformed over the years.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving... I have lots to be thankful for.

 

If you are not going to name names yourself then why not get off this saddle of demanding others 'name names'?

...and who exactly made it your business to say it wasn't my business?


...wait just a minute - I believe it was originally YOU that wanted someone to "name names". Don't try and pin the name names thing on me. That's your horse so you ride it.

AGAIN: You're spinning... Show me the quote where I said these things.

The lack of consistency can be observed by ANYONE (and they don't even have to go up and ask for names despite your beliefs to the contrary). One merely needs to watch the multiple reviews by multiple judges of a stamp pad on a high-dollar '67 BB using various scopes and such vs the quick visual inspection a base L48 will typically get. Do you actually expect us to believe the high value counterfeit prone BB is getting the same treatment as the lowly L48?

You don't need to 'name names' to read a dang manual and see some double standards in print in those manuals.

Aw shucks it was rhetorical - I guess I just plain ol' slipped up and forgot the fascination some people have with witch-hunts and black-lists and take questions like this so literally.

We're still waiting to hear how ya'll track these bad judges you claim are banned from future judging but I'm starting to have my doubts.


Back at ya: Again my response to the ol 'name names' mantra is: If you want to demand others name names YOU need to step up to the plate and start naming names of those behind this witch hunt hiding behind mouthpieces that is the subject of this thread. We all clearly know the names/addresses of the folks that are the recipients of this 'effort' on the part of some seemingly annonymous 'society' and it's mouthpieces. What we still don't know are specific names of those (bad apples?) behind it. All I get is a tiresome mantra of some website but no specific names behind it, just guesses...

So why demand of others what you yourself are either incapable or unwilling to do? That is 'name names'?

Better yet - why not get off the witch hunts, black lists and public embarassment with this demand that others 'name names'. Either be willing to do yourself what you demand of others or drop it.


This is the same standard retort we always get: 'your stereotyping' - the reality is that I'm sure the majority of judges are decent upstanding honest well intentioned folks perhaps with a tinge of snobbery but OK otherwise. But this constant mantra of spinning myself and others into this 'everyone is evil' mold is tiresome. Get over it and be reasonable.

All I askeed: is there a code of conduct or policy or standard that speaks to judges who may have a financial stake in a given activity (like your one example where he excused himself).

Can someone who sells (old) Corvettes, restores them for others as a for profit service, provides a fee based buyer service, manufactures Corvette parts or sells Corvette parts or distributes Corvette parts also be a judge, team leader, or other influential person in authority within your society?

Yes or no?


Yes but do these manuals answer the question raised above about potential conflicts of interest or appearance thereof?


Hogwash. FACT: High dollar cars with popular counterfeited configurations are disproportionately treated to a higher degree of scrutiny, review and use of magnification in areas of potential counterfeit such as the infamous pad. Howl all you want it's not true but ANYBODY can go out and see this for themselves.


They paid their dues and entrance fees and of course they do. In fact given the man-hours involved - it's probably a pretty good deal for anyone. Problem is some folks either have a reputation or have a car that has a high dollar configuration popular for counterfeit - it's not that others get any 'slack' or less... rather it's that some get a little 'more' equal scrutiny.


I know one thing for sure that it's about - and that's going after someone who created a parody graphic.


[QUOTE=Rowdy Rat]and I’m not willing to sit by and let someone else be misled if I can help it.

Nobody need be mislead. Anyone can or should be able to observe the different levels of scrutiny certain high dollar cars seem to receive. Anyone can ask whether or not a judge is also engaged in for-profit Corvette restoration related activities. Anybody can and should ask what the policy is on potential conflicts of interest. And anyone can read a manual and ask about perceived double-standards. Anyone can ask why their dues are going to a legal firm to chase down parodies.

The real trick is getting straight answers it seems.

Gee if I didn't know any better I'd say that's another veiled request to name names. Get off it man

I've raised some questions. Rather than defensively labeling them as accusations - why not consider them?

 

Can't get water out of a rock.!!!!

I do NOT own a house, and do NOT own a car. Have no $$$ in DA BANK!!

I do have an appointment with a "competent" trademark attorney next week. Trust me if I am OK, I am going all out selling stuff more than ever. You know I had no intentions of selling anything since the shirts in the summer, but out of the blue I get the registered letter dated Nov.16 Now everyone is asking for everything NCRS.

 

Look, they can garnish your wages, repossess anything you touch, file liens against you, and effectively screw the rest of your life. Your risk, your call, but even if you don't currently own anything valuable, they can still do very bad things to you. Their lawyers are paid hundreds of dollars an hour to FIND a way to get water out of rocks, and they'll find a way. . . again, though, your call.

 

No salary either

They can get on line with rest of "DA COLLECTORS".

Hey maybe they can garnish the sale of T-Shirts.

 

Thanks Robert

Fair enough. Not addressing old parts out of the GA or a cottage business on the side but someone who makes a living or reasonable part of a living in the Corvette hobby industry - is that person still eligible to be a judge, officer, leader, board member etc at the same time? Is there a potential for conflict of interest? Is there a specific policy that speak to it.

W/ all due respect this is not the quaint perhaps innocent hobby group it once was - the 'originality' hobby for Corvettes has MUCH bigger dollars at stake and intwinted these days.


Both the VIN derivative and code/date etc? E.g the entire pad?

A 'discovered' restamp is given a full or partial deduct but can still (potentially) achieve a first flight?

An undetected restamp is given most or all points and more easily gets first flight?

Is there a requirement that the owner stipulate if it's restamped or just let the judges come to their own conclusions?



However did they not in your opinion help create this monster with many years of attention on the now infamous pad?

 

Amen!

And thank you for your service and thank you for not buckling and sticking up for your first amendment rights!

For that same reason I'll be @#$#ed if I'll let someone tell me it's 'not my business' to be involved and and support a thread where a large organization with deep pockets and hired mouthpieces attempts to thwart what I believe to be (corvette relevant) free speech on the part of the little guy!

Have a good one!

 

What activities? Driving a car to a parking lot, paying some money, parking it and automatically getting an award for showing up to an event that's probably closed to the public?

 

Again- I'm tellin' ya- the NCRS can scream all it wants- but parody (satiric comedy) is a well -protected and well-used basic First Amendment right. Look at Michael Moore, fer Chrissakes! They don't have a fricken' leg to stand on. And any lawyer worth a sh*t would know it.

 

"pgtr",

I originally posted “I have no knowledge of what initiated the current legal issues between NCRS and the two gentlemen in question. I would imagine that the president of NCRS and most likely the board of directors know the reason for this.”

What part of this statement are you having trouble comprehending? I don’t know who or what caused this situation. I am not aware of any person(s) who took issue with the two men in question. I make no claims to having inside information on the legal activities of the NCRS. If I were inclined to find out, I would call my regional representative or the president of NCRS (most likely both). If you wish to stick your head in the sand and ignore everything that I post, then that’s your problem.

Poor choice of word regarding what is or isn’t your business… More correctly, I should have said that if you are not a member the NCRS doesn’t owe you an explanation… Just the two men involved. What do you care anyway? You know who has the answers at NCRS and you refuse to contact them (Hint: If you’ve forgotten already, look at the previous paragraph). Argument simply for the sake of argument… Like all of your posts so far.

Yes, I asked that you post the names of the people that you claimed were performing in an unethical manner within the NCRS judging system. You made the accusations (and they were accusations regardless of how YOU wish to spin them). You’re right… It is my horse… I’m riding it… And you’re running away.

When I took you up on your offer for names and numbers, you declined… Your last comment was “Aw shucks it was rhetorical - I guess I just plain ol' slipped up and forgot the fascination some people have with witch-hunts and black-lists and take questions like this so literally.”

Actually, where you slipped up was believing that everyone would take your BS at face value. If you want to slander the integrity of a lot of GREAT people, do so at your own risk. Personally, I won’t sit still for it. You made the claim, now back it up.

You ask “So why demand of others what you yourself are either incapable or unwilling to do? That is 'name names'?” I already posted I have no inside knowledge as to what is going on. If I knew, I’d post them. Then again, I never said that I personally witnessed unethical behavior on the part of judges either… But you did. If you witnessed this (as you claimed in a previous post), then you would know the details of the events as well as those involved. It has nothing to do with a witch hunt… It has to do with someone hiding behind a computer, making unsubstantiated accusations and impugning the commitment and integrity of some pretty fantastic people.

Regards,

Stan Falenski

 

Yes. As Rowdy Rat stated, they can judge. As he also mentioned they should step aside when judging that portion of the car. If they don't, there is a conflict of interest and I am sure it happens. AND yes, there might be cars that get awards they shouldn't.

I definitely agree.

This is still best answered by Rowdy Rat, but based on understanding, an undetectable restamp VIN and date code) can pass as correct and lose no points. Given the ifficulty in creating a perfect stamp, that shouldn't happen. The judges tend to find them. It's future buyers that get burned. (I sell you my car and disclose the restamp. You sell the car and don't. Third buyer gets Judged and gets caught - This is why I am against restamps. I think restamps should disqualify judguing in the interest of protecting future buyers.) As a note, my car has an incorrect block. EVEN with the wrong block, I can still Top Flight. Why restamp? Why allow it?

I believe that detected restamps are treated as if they weren't there in the first place.

I don't think NCRS created the "monster". I still think it's a by product. NCRS was created to preserve originality. Cars are examined, manuals are created, owners get to compare their cars the manual. Judging comes in as an impartial way to verify that a car meets the standards created. Somewhere along the line, an owner places an ad that his or her car got this or taht award and a buyer is willing to pay more for this validation. An owner of a identical car, albeit with a blank pad, thinks I can get more money if the pad is numbers matching and restamps.

A noble organization dedicated to a worthwhile cause ends up as the scapegoat.

 

The Sportsman class is what I believe Rowdy Rat was referring to:

http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html#SPORTSMAN

The Sportsman Award, presented by a Chapter officer at a local chapter function, has two purposes:

1. Encourage member participation in NCRS events.
2. Demonstrate NCRS's commitment to recognize the member who actively attends and drives a Corvette to Chapter, Regional and National meets.

NCRS Sportsman Award Requirements Within the award year or three preceding calendar years, a member must achieve:


1. Be a member of any NCRS Chapter. Membership must be carried during all points accumulation. (Chapter, at their discretion may wave NCRS membership for first time participant at a Chapter meet).

2. Member must own and drive a 1953 through current production Corvette and park in the designated "Sportsman" parking area...or... Member must own and drive a "Stock appearing" 1953-1982 Corvette and be willing to leave their car on the judging field with the judged cars during the event as space permits. "Stock appearing" is defined as no body, bumper or driving light modifications.

3. Must pay event registration fee. Must register and pay for Sportsman participation at the event. Must remain at the event until all Flight Judging is complete.

4. Must provide proof of liability insurance.

5. Owner may accumulate points with the same Corvette or with different Corvettes.

6. There will be no judging of any kind. Participant (at Chapter discretion) receive a Sportsman ribbon. Participant earns points as follows: Chapter meet- 2 points; Regional meet- 3 points; National meet- 5 points.

7. Participant will not be able to register for Sportsman and attempt any other award at the same meet. For example, no Founders operations check and Sportsman, or no Flight Judging and Sportsman, or no Duntov Display and Sportsman, etc.

8. Member may not gain multiple points by entering more than 1 car per event. When a member achieves 20 Sportsman points within a three year period, including Sportsman participation in at least two Regionals, a plaque will be provided by National to their Chapter officers for presentation at the Chapter level. This plaque will have space to add on plates that can only be earned by re-presentation at a National Convention in any single year that the member accumulates 10 additional points (including Sportsman participation at the National Convention).

 

Too many rules and regulations! Guess that's why I don't mess with car shows too much! Don't get me wrong, a car that has been restored perfectly is pretty cool, but when you see a whole line of the same thing, it gets old fast! If the guys on this forum ever got together in one place, now that would be an interesting show!
Also, I think a Non Stock Corvette Racing shirt would be cool if those letters aren't trademarked!! May have to buy a print press.

 

Florida has a great bankruptcy policy that you can file for every 7 years

 

Robert N said:

"Yes. As Rowdy Rat stated, they can judge. As he also mentioned they should step aside when judging that portion of the car. If they don't, there is a conflict of interest and I am sure it happens. AND yes, there might be cars that get awards they shouldn't."


I agree. The judging rules specifically state that a judge who has 'prior knowledge' of a car must step aside. This means that if the judge was a prior owner, restorer, mechanic, parts supplier, etc. etc. of a given car they are in a conflict of interest situation and could unfairly influence the score. Pretty good policy I think.

 

Apparently GM doesn't care, or has better things to do with their time and money than upset a group of people who might be in the market for a new GM product. Otherwise they would have sent their lawyers after you already.

Keep Fighting The Good Fight! Where can we get the stickers?

 

I've had a change of heart. I really had no intention to upset anyone. like I said above I thought that it was funny what Paul had said and only wanted a sticker for my car. I have never intentionally trashed the "Society". I have never participated in their organization and have no knowledge of there activities. My first reaction was to get really upset about being accused of doing illegal drawings, but I'm trying REALLY hard to see it from their side. I thought it was more a joke on me not correctly restoring my Corvette than on anyone else. In reality I don't really care about the design, I have no financial stake in it, and what if it might cause harm how ever legal it would be for me to do it. Like I said before, I wish the "Society" had handled it differently but these days people tend to head for the lawyers first. If they had just called and talk to me, and asked nicely I would have complied, I'm really a pretty reasonable guy. I just have a bit of a problem being pushed around and threatend. Who knows maybe it's on their lawyers advice on how they proceeded. I also wish that you had known nothing about it.

I have deleted the website that I used to transfer files and you will not see anymore "Not correctly..." designs from me. I have requested that the "Society" send me whatever they want me to sign with regards to this issue short of doing anything wrong. It had really run it's course and was essentially gone. I would like it to go back to that status.

I also would like to apologize for egging it on after this mess was revealed I was just a little upset.

David

 

you know last halloween my wife found this paper (from a craft store) that goes in your computer printer and you transfer an image on to it from the computer and it prints on this paper...you then take an iron and transfer the image to a t-shirt or sweat shirt, what ever...it made really cool halloween costumes.......

 

What a complete and total pile of horespucky!

A guy makes a sticker and a T-shirt to poke fun at a club and they freakin want to sue him?

'the society" should lighten up and actually have a "Not correctly restored shark" award.

Heck, I think they should pay these guys for their idea (its a great idea)and run with it and include the people on this and other forums instead of alienating them! Ther are probably 1000 times more "not correctly restored" cars.

 

pgtr,

Seems odd that you are asking for names when you are unwilling to give your own. Must be comforting to hide behind a simple screen name. Rowdy Rat, LOTAHP, etc. seem comfortable about fully filling out a public profile. That would seem to show integrity. What are you hiding (from).

Let us know who you are.

Regards,

Mark Donnally
NCRS 13264