THE "NEW" NCRS
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
Likes: 263
From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
the amazing part of this whole episode is everyone disagreed in a pretty civil fashion....good job everyone for not making this a personal attack on the other side...well except for some bad things said about lawyers...
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
From: Oklahoma City OK
You definitely need to consult with an intellectual property attorney
Trademark law is something most general practice lawyers are not familiar with. You guys should not take this lightly, and you would be well advised not to argue your case here.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 6
From: FRANKLIN GA
You know, I'm just an old southern boy with a Corvette I enjoy . I don't use fancy words or extreme logic in my conversations that I do or don't agree with, so with that said, here's my take on all of this.
I have respect for the NCRS guys, their cars a beautiful and they have every right to have a lot of pride in them and to do with them as they see fit.
I don't see why they are trying to take away or otherwise diminsh the pride we take in ours. That's what the sticker or t-shirt represents to me and to me this is what it boils down to.
To be honest (and I know a few members don't represent the whole group) if they weren't so arrogant and didn't look down their noses at us because we like to mod our cars, the humor in the sticker wouldn't be near as funny as it is and if they didn't think the last statement was somewhat true they wouldn't be near as offended as they are.
I guess the older our cars get the worse it will be. More people will get into the C3 hobby for the money instead of the fun. And I can even appriciate that point of veiw because if I had an original or close to it C1 or C2, I don't think I would be able to bring myself to mod it. Basket cases or drag cars are different and I like my cars faster than original, but I'm not stupid.
I have respect for the NCRS guys, their cars a beautiful and they have every right to have a lot of pride in them and to do with them as they see fit.
I don't see why they are trying to take away or otherwise diminsh the pride we take in ours. That's what the sticker or t-shirt represents to me and to me this is what it boils down to.
To be honest (and I know a few members don't represent the whole group) if they weren't so arrogant and didn't look down their noses at us because we like to mod our cars, the humor in the sticker wouldn't be near as funny as it is and if they didn't think the last statement was somewhat true they wouldn't be near as offended as they are.
I guess the older our cars get the worse it will be. More people will get into the C3 hobby for the money instead of the fun. And I can even appriciate that point of veiw because if I had an original or close to it C1 or C2, I don't think I would be able to bring myself to mod it. Basket cases or drag cars are different and I like my cars faster than original, but I'm not stupid.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,103
Likes: 0
From: Tucson AZ
pgtr
But when someone was complaining about a profit motive earlier Rowdy Rat retorted that was OK: "For making a few bucks when they sell their car instead of losing their shirt?" in a general sense of making some money or whatever.
It is fine for them to make money. The purpose of NCRS was to document original/correct cars (there is a difference) not that owners should use this information to make money. That is a by product. The part you see is the fact that people place more value on numbers matching and that drives up the price. Right or wrong it happens. I personally feel that the award has no bearing on the price considering the car that one can be altered AFTER the award.
OK so if a motor gets too worn out, blown or whatever and is replaced - it is now a fake motor. Or if an AC compressor is replaced - the new one is a fake. And same for a distributor - if replaced it's now a fake. Correct?
It is not "fake", but rather not original. Many people buy based on numbers matching. My problem with the term is that most people view (as did I originally) that numbers matching equates to original. This is not true. Numbers matching means all of the parts are correctly dated and numbered for the car in question. It does not adress originality.
You're saying that it IS ok to restamp a fake block (or real block that's been decked) to make it #'s matching...? You get your award presumably and the fake motor does not 'hurt' it and you are not hauled upon the pillar of shame or whatever. Do I have that right?
BINGO!!!!
I don't agree with restamps (separate issue alltogether) but technically restamps are allowed for flight awards.
So for a separate activity - the sale of the car - you can use that award as a sales tool to enhnace the value of a car at the time of sale. But you cannot represent the car or it's component(s) as anythign but a fake at the time of sale because it was restamped.
The award, IMHO, SHOULD NOT enhance the value, but it does. This is my issue with NCRS. What started as a menas to preserve and document these cars for historical purposes created a situation where "verified originals" garnered a higher resale value. I do not believe NCRS was created to help owners restore these cars, but rather preserve and correct some of the changes made along the way. It has become big business to retsore cars to Top Flight status and sell them for more big $$. It is a by product of the organizations original intents as I seem them. Plenty of members join and advocate this route and they are the "bad apples" most people refer to.
I had the pleasure of finding this Forum and getting responses from many an NCRS member, especially Rowdy Rat, prior to getting caught in the numbers matching game and that has certainly helped me. Most of the members are out to protect the heritage and history of the car and see that buyers don't get "taken".
But when someone was complaining about a profit motive earlier Rowdy Rat retorted that was OK: "For making a few bucks when they sell their car instead of losing their shirt?" in a general sense of making some money or whatever.
It is fine for them to make money. The purpose of NCRS was to document original/correct cars (there is a difference) not that owners should use this information to make money. That is a by product. The part you see is the fact that people place more value on numbers matching and that drives up the price. Right or wrong it happens. I personally feel that the award has no bearing on the price considering the car that one can be altered AFTER the award.
OK so if a motor gets too worn out, blown or whatever and is replaced - it is now a fake motor. Or if an AC compressor is replaced - the new one is a fake. And same for a distributor - if replaced it's now a fake. Correct?
It is not "fake", but rather not original. Many people buy based on numbers matching. My problem with the term is that most people view (as did I originally) that numbers matching equates to original. This is not true. Numbers matching means all of the parts are correctly dated and numbered for the car in question. It does not adress originality.
You're saying that it IS ok to restamp a fake block (or real block that's been decked) to make it #'s matching...? You get your award presumably and the fake motor does not 'hurt' it and you are not hauled upon the pillar of shame or whatever. Do I have that right?
BINGO!!!!
I don't agree with restamps (separate issue alltogether) but technically restamps are allowed for flight awards.
So for a separate activity - the sale of the car - you can use that award as a sales tool to enhnace the value of a car at the time of sale. But you cannot represent the car or it's component(s) as anythign but a fake at the time of sale because it was restamped.
The award, IMHO, SHOULD NOT enhance the value, but it does. This is my issue with NCRS. What started as a menas to preserve and document these cars for historical purposes created a situation where "verified originals" garnered a higher resale value. I do not believe NCRS was created to help owners restore these cars, but rather preserve and correct some of the changes made along the way. It has become big business to retsore cars to Top Flight status and sell them for more big $$. It is a by product of the organizations original intents as I seem them. Plenty of members join and advocate this route and they are the "bad apples" most people refer to.
I had the pleasure of finding this Forum and getting responses from many an NCRS member, especially Rowdy Rat, prior to getting caught in the numbers matching game and that has certainly helped me. Most of the members are out to protect the heritage and history of the car and see that buyers don't get "taken".
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Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 837
From: PA
"pgtr",
I have no knowledge of what initiated the current legal issues between NCRS and the two gentlemen in question. I would imagine that the president of NCRS and most likely the board of directors know the reason for this. Their names and telephone numbers are listed on the NCRS website and inside the front cover of every Restorer magazine. If you are an NCRS member, I suggest you pick up the telephone, call one of these representatives, and ask them. As a member, I believe you are entitled to at least a general explanation as to why this is being pursued. If you are not a member, then it’s none of your business… The issue lies with the two parties named in the letter. If they wish to make the proceedings public, that is their prerogative, but don’t expect the same from NCRS just because you feel some sense of entitlement.
You’ve made several comments regarding the ethics and integrity of the judges in the NCRS. You have also made accusations that judges intentionally ignore judging standards in order to make money and to promote their own agenda. You said it… I didn’t. You asked me if I wanted names and numbers... When I said that I did, you completely avoided the question. Now I ask you once again, who are these people? This is important to me and the majority of members in the NCRS who don’t want this type of activity in our organization. If you can’t provide them, then I have a serious problem with believing anything that you’ve said to this point. If you won’t provide them (for whatever reason) then you should have never opened that topic for discussion.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing… Unfortunately, it is not something we are born with. We go to school to learn the basics… Reading, writing, etc. The same follows through in the Corvette hobby as well. We don’t come into the hobby with a vast database of part numbers, option codes, and countless other pieces of information… We acquire it over the years through reading, observing cars, talking to owners… What have you. People in the hobby are not at the same level of development and yes, some people will be know more about these cars than other people will. What is the major revelation with this statement? If you want to have a car judged in the NCRS, talk to judges who deal in the model year car that you are interested in before you buy one (or take to heart their recommendations if you already own a car). If you have thoughts of a Bloomington Gold certification, talk to their judges. If you want to get involved in concourse judging, then NCCC is probably who you want to contact. If judging isn’t your bag, then get involved in that area of the hobby that interests you. The point is that wherever you start, you’ll probably be at the bottom of the learning curve… Anyone who expects to walk in and know everything is deluding himself.
The judging process is outlined in the judging manual as well as the judging guides for the various years. The general standard, that is, a Corvette as delivered by General Motors, with normal dealer prep, holds true for all judged Corvettes… Doesn’t matter if it’s a ’67 big block or a ’75 L-48. Personally, I like the 1968-1972 cars so I don’t get involved with the other years in any detail. I take a lot of pride in being able to give an owner the best possible assessment of his or her car and doesn’t matter one bit to me if that car is a base engine driver that an owner decided to have judged “just to see what it would score” to a no expense spared, body off restored L-88. Each owner deserves an equally high level of performance from the men and women judging their car. I personally don’t know any judge who has “slacked off” just because a car wasn’t worth as much as the others being judged. If you somehow feel slighted or left out because your car isn’t getting the attention you feel it deserves, I suggest you revisit my comments regarding jealousy discussed in my previous post.
I have been an NCRS member for about ten years, but I debated joining the NCRS for many years prior to that, mainly due to a small number of people who made comments just like yours. I realize how much fun I missed in those years by listening to people who really had no clue as to what NCRS was all about and I’m not willing to sit by and let someone else be misled if I can help it. I know that the organization isn’t perfect, but I do my part as a member to see that it is constantly improving by being actively involved… Not by hiding behind some computer username making accusations that that can’t be substantiated.
Regards,
Stan Falenski
I have no knowledge of what initiated the current legal issues between NCRS and the two gentlemen in question. I would imagine that the president of NCRS and most likely the board of directors know the reason for this. Their names and telephone numbers are listed on the NCRS website and inside the front cover of every Restorer magazine. If you are an NCRS member, I suggest you pick up the telephone, call one of these representatives, and ask them. As a member, I believe you are entitled to at least a general explanation as to why this is being pursued. If you are not a member, then it’s none of your business… The issue lies with the two parties named in the letter. If they wish to make the proceedings public, that is their prerogative, but don’t expect the same from NCRS just because you feel some sense of entitlement.
You’ve made several comments regarding the ethics and integrity of the judges in the NCRS. You have also made accusations that judges intentionally ignore judging standards in order to make money and to promote their own agenda. You said it… I didn’t. You asked me if I wanted names and numbers... When I said that I did, you completely avoided the question. Now I ask you once again, who are these people? This is important to me and the majority of members in the NCRS who don’t want this type of activity in our organization. If you can’t provide them, then I have a serious problem with believing anything that you’ve said to this point. If you won’t provide them (for whatever reason) then you should have never opened that topic for discussion.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing… Unfortunately, it is not something we are born with. We go to school to learn the basics… Reading, writing, etc. The same follows through in the Corvette hobby as well. We don’t come into the hobby with a vast database of part numbers, option codes, and countless other pieces of information… We acquire it over the years through reading, observing cars, talking to owners… What have you. People in the hobby are not at the same level of development and yes, some people will be know more about these cars than other people will. What is the major revelation with this statement? If you want to have a car judged in the NCRS, talk to judges who deal in the model year car that you are interested in before you buy one (or take to heart their recommendations if you already own a car). If you have thoughts of a Bloomington Gold certification, talk to their judges. If you want to get involved in concourse judging, then NCCC is probably who you want to contact. If judging isn’t your bag, then get involved in that area of the hobby that interests you. The point is that wherever you start, you’ll probably be at the bottom of the learning curve… Anyone who expects to walk in and know everything is deluding himself.
The judging process is outlined in the judging manual as well as the judging guides for the various years. The general standard, that is, a Corvette as delivered by General Motors, with normal dealer prep, holds true for all judged Corvettes… Doesn’t matter if it’s a ’67 big block or a ’75 L-48. Personally, I like the 1968-1972 cars so I don’t get involved with the other years in any detail. I take a lot of pride in being able to give an owner the best possible assessment of his or her car and doesn’t matter one bit to me if that car is a base engine driver that an owner decided to have judged “just to see what it would score” to a no expense spared, body off restored L-88. Each owner deserves an equally high level of performance from the men and women judging their car. I personally don’t know any judge who has “slacked off” just because a car wasn’t worth as much as the others being judged. If you somehow feel slighted or left out because your car isn’t getting the attention you feel it deserves, I suggest you revisit my comments regarding jealousy discussed in my previous post.
I have been an NCRS member for about ten years, but I debated joining the NCRS for many years prior to that, mainly due to a small number of people who made comments just like yours. I realize how much fun I missed in those years by listening to people who really had no clue as to what NCRS was all about and I’m not willing to sit by and let someone else be misled if I can help it. I know that the organization isn’t perfect, but I do my part as a member to see that it is constantly improving by being actively involved… Not by hiding behind some computer username making accusations that that can’t be substantiated.
Regards,
Stan Falenski
.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 837
From: PA
EDDIEJ82, PROSOUTH, et. al.,
It really isn't an issue of "us against them"... As I mentioned, there are a lot of active NCRS members who have modified cars or cars that have not been restored with NCRS judging in mind. The NCRS even created an award for these cars so that more Corvette owners could be included in NCRS activities. NCRS will never be "all inclusive" with regard to flight judging, but they want people to participate in other areas of the organization whether their car is stock or not.
I guess it is a matter of perception too Eddie... The people on the "stock" side of the hobby will tell you that we get our fair share of disrespect too. I can't tell you how many times that people have told me "Nice car, but I bought mine to drive..." I have news for them... I have always driven my cars and have never owned a trailer (and probably never will). There are a lot of people out there on both sides making unfair stereotypes of the other group.
I don't expect the modified crowd to come around to my way of thinking... It would make things boring it they did. If you own the car, do what you want with it and enjoy it... You won't hear anything about it from me because I'll be doing exactly the same!
Regards,
Stan Falenski
It really isn't an issue of "us against them"... As I mentioned, there are a lot of active NCRS members who have modified cars or cars that have not been restored with NCRS judging in mind. The NCRS even created an award for these cars so that more Corvette owners could be included in NCRS activities. NCRS will never be "all inclusive" with regard to flight judging, but they want people to participate in other areas of the organization whether their car is stock or not.
I guess it is a matter of perception too Eddie... The people on the "stock" side of the hobby will tell you that we get our fair share of disrespect too. I can't tell you how many times that people have told me "Nice car, but I bought mine to drive..." I have news for them... I have always driven my cars and have never owned a trailer (and probably never will). There are a lot of people out there on both sides making unfair stereotypes of the other group.
I don't expect the modified crowd to come around to my way of thinking... It would make things boring it they did. If you own the car, do what you want with it and enjoy it... You won't hear anything about it from me because I'll be doing exactly the same!
Regards,
Stan Falenski
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 6
From: FRANKLIN GA
Originally Posted by Rowdy Rat
EDDIEJ82, PROSOUTH, et. al.,
It really isn't an issue of "us against them"... As I mentioned, there are a lot of active NCRS members who have modified cars or cars that have not been restored with NCRS judging in mind. The NCRS even created an award for these cars so that more Corvette owners could be included in NCRS activities. NCRS will never be "all inclusive" with regard to flight judging, but they want people to participate in other areas of the organization whether their car is stock or not.
I guess it is a matter of perception too Eddie... The people on the "stock" side of the hobby will tell you that we get our fair share of disrespect too. I can't tell you how many times that people have told me "Nice car, but I bought mine to drive..." I have news for them... I have always driven my cars and have never owned a trailer (and probably never will). There are a lot of people out there on both sides making unfair stereotypes of the other group.
I don't expect the modified crowd to come around to my way of thinking... It would make things boring it they did. If you own the car, do what you want with it and enjoy it... You won't hear anything about it from me because I'll be doing exactly the same!
Regards,
Stan Falenski
It really isn't an issue of "us against them"... As I mentioned, there are a lot of active NCRS members who have modified cars or cars that have not been restored with NCRS judging in mind. The NCRS even created an award for these cars so that more Corvette owners could be included in NCRS activities. NCRS will never be "all inclusive" with regard to flight judging, but they want people to participate in other areas of the organization whether their car is stock or not.
I guess it is a matter of perception too Eddie... The people on the "stock" side of the hobby will tell you that we get our fair share of disrespect too. I can't tell you how many times that people have told me "Nice car, but I bought mine to drive..." I have news for them... I have always driven my cars and have never owned a trailer (and probably never will). There are a lot of people out there on both sides making unfair stereotypes of the other group.
I don't expect the modified crowd to come around to my way of thinking... It would make things boring it they did. If you own the car, do what you want with it and enjoy it... You won't hear anything about it from me because I'll be doing exactly the same!
Regards,
Stan Falenski
Stan, if there were more people in the NCRS like you it would it would be a better organization.
My point of veiw isn't an us or them thing. This is what I'm having a problem with. Ya'll have your stickers and trophies, what's wrong with us having ours? I take great pride in the fact that my car is modded and would like to display it on my car or on a t-shirt too. I know this sounds like a contradiction on the us or them thing but it's not. I don't have a problem with the NCRS as a whole, I just have a problem with the way they are handling this piticular issue.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 21,455
Likes: 462
From: Massillon,Ohio USA
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12
I agree with Stan whole heartedly. I too joined NCRS six years later than I should've. It was AFTER I joined I realized I missed out on alot of large past NCRS events that "had" been in my area in previous years. Yeah, NCRS' judging criteria IS about "stock" and "original" similar to Bloomington, but this is just one small aspect of the hobby(actually, for what NCRS for with over 14,000 "families" paying dues, I guess it's pretty large). NCCC has their rallys, dragracing, poker runs, concoursing, autocrossing-but that's their "aspect" of the hobby.
I guess I'm split on each side of the fence. I do have "two" NCRS type "Bowtie" original cars only because I purchased them in "very original"(hate the overabused term "all original" as the only "all original" Corvettes are coming off of the line in Bowling Green)condition and would like to "maintain" them in this condition. I choose to keep them this way because on these two cars, it's the way I CHOOSE. On the other hand, I have two "non-original motor" cars which is the way I enjoy "them". Even so far as for the last 10 months went and put a crate motor and converted to a manual transmission in my 1975 coupe because that is the way "I chose" to do it. If it bothers another NCRS member because of what I did, then forgive me 'o NCRS member, but that title is in MY NAME not yours and I'll do what I want with My Corvette. I'm also not alone as an NCRS member doing this either. Many people don't realize many(could be most even)NCRS members have modified Corvettes too, not just "judged" ones or "restored" ones. My Corvettes also have a combined mileage 356,000 miles, probably 1/3 of that-118,000mi put on by me in the last 14yrs, so I DRIVE mine. Yeah, I'll keep my two (very)original cars (very)original. Restore one of the others???, naw, not my "thing". I enjoy them too much the way they are "Correctly Restored or Not"
Do I regret joining NCRS-nope. Only regret was I did'nt join it 6 yrs earlier. The cruisin' to the shows in my Corvettes, the dinners out on the town with other members at an event, the shooting pool(Stan), the socializing, the judging of the cars, the chatting with the owners, the just "being there amongst other Corvette owners" to me is fantastic. Don't think I could have had it any better. Cannot wait until it starts all over again next year
I guess I'm split on each side of the fence. I do have "two" NCRS type "Bowtie" original cars only because I purchased them in "very original"(hate the overabused term "all original" as the only "all original" Corvettes are coming off of the line in Bowling Green)condition and would like to "maintain" them in this condition. I choose to keep them this way because on these two cars, it's the way I CHOOSE. On the other hand, I have two "non-original motor" cars which is the way I enjoy "them". Even so far as for the last 10 months went and put a crate motor and converted to a manual transmission in my 1975 coupe because that is the way "I chose" to do it. If it bothers another NCRS member because of what I did, then forgive me 'o NCRS member, but that title is in MY NAME not yours and I'll do what I want with My Corvette. I'm also not alone as an NCRS member doing this either. Many people don't realize many(could be most even)NCRS members have modified Corvettes too, not just "judged" ones or "restored" ones. My Corvettes also have a combined mileage 356,000 miles, probably 1/3 of that-118,000mi put on by me in the last 14yrs, so I DRIVE mine. Yeah, I'll keep my two (very)original cars (very)original. Restore one of the others???, naw, not my "thing". I enjoy them too much the way they are "Correctly Restored or Not"
Do I regret joining NCRS-nope. Only regret was I did'nt join it 6 yrs earlier. The cruisin' to the shows in my Corvettes, the dinners out on the town with other members at an event, the shooting pool(Stan), the socializing, the judging of the cars, the chatting with the owners, the just "being there amongst other Corvette owners" to me is fantastic. Don't think I could have had it any better. Cannot wait until it starts all over again next year
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,446
Likes: 2
From: Not Correctly Restored Stingray Fla.
I was an NCRS member when I first got my Vette on the road, back in '89. I still miss the NCRS meet @ Cypress Gardens, it's hasn't been the same since. Was with a very good friend (who is no longer with us 
) and watched him bring home a Blue Ribbon for his '67 tri-power 427 vert. It was awesome especially when he did most of the work himself. Then as time went on and I got more modified I was noticing that I am not "fitting in" 
I still remain friends with everyone and still see them at the events. I'm just not a member. I respect their cars and what they stand for. I just hope they respect my Vette. 11.50's in the quarter mile and I DROVE to the NCM twice. 
) and watched him bring home a Blue Ribbon for his '67 tri-power 427 vert. It was awesome especially when he did most of the work himself. Then as time went on and I got more modified I was noticing that I am not "fitting in" I still remain friends with everyone and still see them at the events. I'm just not a member. I respect their cars and what they stand for. I just hope they respect my Vette. 11.50's in the quarter mile and I DROVE to the NCM twice.
Last edited by LOTAHP; Nov 24, 2004 at 01:23 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 21,455
Likes: 462
From: Massillon,Ohio USA
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12
Originally Posted by LOTAHP
I respect their cares and what they stand for. I just hope they respect my Vette. 11.50's in the quarter mile and I DROVE to the NCM twice.
11.50s in the quarter???
I'd love a ride, better yet we'll trade cars, but we're not runnin' for pinks even IF you drive mine Just don't expect to make it to the other end BEFORE 15 seconds elapses 
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,446
Likes: 2
From: Not Correctly Restored Stingray Fla.
Paul, (not to get off this fantastic subject) but when I drove up there, it was with 3.73 & M-20. Now it'll be even nicer with 4.11 & 700R4. I "think" I would tow the Vette up there next time, to the Cruise-In. Simply because "DA WIFE" would be with me. It is not one of the newer "COR-DILLACs" (C5s) where it still feels like your sitting in your living roon @ 150mph.
I "think" I would tow the Vette up there next time, to the Cruise-In. Simply because "DA WIFE" would be with me. It is not one of the newer "COR-DILLACs" (C5s) where it still feels like your sitting in your living roon @ 150mph.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta GA
Originally Posted by Nick in OKC
Trademark law is something most general practice lawyers are not familiar with. You guys should not take this lightly, and you would be well advised not to argue your case here.
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. DO NOTHING FURTHER WITHOUT CONSULTING A COMPETENT ATTORNEY WHO SPECIALIZES IN THIS FIELD. THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE SUING YOU ALREADY HAVE. Think lawyer's fees are expensive? Wait till you're paying theirs.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 26,545
Likes: 46
From: Huntersville NC
Wow, that first letter was ridiculous!! It gave me the creeps to have him refer to NCRS as "the Society"... it's the "NCRS" for cripes sake, like the 2nd letter did. "The Society"???? Did he just finish reading the Davinci Code or something???