Check for continuity between the ECM and the distributor on all 4 wires and the wires to ground. It wouldn't hurt to replace the ignition module with a known good one too. Try disconnecting the knock sensor also. Remember, a bad knock sensor would send a constant knock condition to the ECM. The ECM then thinks that, since there is knock (which there isn't) it will not only retard timing but send less fuel through the injectors to ease the knock condition. Try it first ( disconnect knock sensor) before anything else and see what happens.

Will

 

Appears the ECM does recognize the Reference pulse. That's why it turned the fuel pump on for a second when you did the test.

PM me your mailing address if you want me to send my known good ECM with the MEM Cal for an Automatic trans.

The engine will run without the MAF.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and time! when you installed the new ECM did you carefully remove the mem cal from the old ECM and install it correctly? I doubt the mem cal is bad unless you damaged it upon removal and installation.

You know, at this point I'd totally drain any fuel(liquid) from the tank and refill it with fresh fuel since the problem all started with the car being left out in the rain. I know...you said you did this already, but remember...water will settle to the bottom of the tank....where the fuel pump picks it up first! The starting fluid confirms either fuel delivery problem, bad fuel or injector pulsing problem....seems like you've eliminated aan injector(s) problem.

If you decide to try this, make sure you connect the pressure guage and run some of the fuel out the relief hose on the guage.

Simple things cause massive headaches.

 

RE: Trackman 44
I took all 3 of my ICM's to have them tested at the auto parts store. Each of module was tested over and over (20 times each to check for intermitent failures) all were confirmed to be OK and operating properly. I disconnected the 4 leads (1 is the ground screwed to the body of distributor) from the short ICM harness where they contact the module and tested them for solid continuity between the ECM. All connections were solid and unopened nor were the wires shorted to each other or any other grounding points. I also checked to ensure that the distrutor's base body was grounded. Proven to be good ICM was reinstalled and distributor was reassembled. I also tried the unhook the knock sensor routine and try to start it ---still no good - no difference.

RE: Hooked On Vettes
I agree it does appear that the ECM does recognize the reference pulses from the distributor. I've also noticed that the if I watch the RPM gage in the dash digital cluster I can see the RPMs increase up one bar when I crank the engine. The ECM scanner sees nothing. The test results from the Helm's flow chart seem to be a bust. I may take you up on that loner ECM and cal-pack (my car is an automatic also) It's very nice of you to offer it - I'll let you know by tomorrow night.

RE: Rick Lambert
I hear you on the water in the fuel thought. I have been purging the fuel out every time before I cank it - all the fuel that comes out looks good. If I hook up the Injection tester and manualy fire all the injectors I can get it to start for a second or two since it is puddled in the intake/heads. I think the gas OK since it causes this combustion to occur. Regarding when I installed the "new" ECM and mem cal from the old ECM and installed it correctly? Um yeah - I've changed these out on other cars before...it is easy as pie there was no forcing anything...you just pop the 2 side clips out-n-down and there you go it is out... and yes, it was lined up properly when reinstalled into each ECM unit and both side clips were re-latched. I also doubt that the mem cal is bad - the sticker is still over the "UV erase window" is still in place.

 

Get rid of the intake manifold and computer. Install a Edelbrock Victor Junior intake, Demon 650 carb. Install a non computerized distributor (one with the weights). Make sure you have a cold air intake for the carb ( underhood temps get pretty hot!). Adjust distrb for proper timing, tune carb. Then she'll run. Don't know what else to tell you. Maybe the engine did miss a timing tooth. Maybe the camshaft lobes are worn out. Maybe the rocker arms need to be adjusted for proper lash. Maybe timing is off because of worn cam gear. Maybe valve springs are out of specs. Check for these things. Take care.

Will

 

I found this in my TPI bible, but since I never had to do it myself, I was a little reluctant to post it.
Since you tried just about everything, you might want to give it a shot?

"Placing a 3.9 kohm resistor between terminal B and ground terminal A will put the ECM into back-up mode.
This mode activates the limp-home system and the ECM will be using only RPM, throttle position and coolant temp to control the injectors.
This mode is automatically entered when a major component failure is detected by the ECM.
Placing the 3.9kohm resistor across terminals A and B tests the ECM's ability to enter this mode."

 

Have you checked the fuse box? Test the 'fuel inj 1' and 'fuel inj 2' fuses for continuity. If they're ok check to make sure the positive side of all 8 injector harnesses reads +12 volts with key on engine off. Test the voltage from battery ground and engine ground and see if there is a difference in voltage. Also compare it to battery voltage. Post the results. I think i have an idea whats wrong.

 

Yes - I have been over this circuit many many times - all the fuses are and have been good - there is 12v on the injectors. Injector circuit from the fuse to all the injectors themselves are good. The injectors are also good. I have also hot wired my injector tester to the ECM's injector drive terminals and pulsed the entire harness to pulse each injector bank.....they all fire..they are fine. All grounds from the ECM to the engine block and from the block to the battery are also good .0 ohm deviation...so no loose or floating grounds are causing this condition.

If you have an idea about what's wrong - spill it - I'm all ears!

 

RE: Hooked On Vettes
I did some further testing today and ECM is in fact recognizing the reference pulses from the distributor. Today, I used the ether to run the engine for about 15 seconds. I noticed that it takes about 6 seconds for the RPMs and the injector pulse width. Yes - I did say injectors are showing that they are infact pulsing. So the ECM scanner sees nothing on these two values until about 6 seconds after the engine is running - it doesn't register if you just continually crank it. So it seems that the ECM and cal-pack are functioning properly. Thanks for the offer of the loner ECM and cal-pack (my car is an automatic also) It was very nice of you to offer them.

With the ECM eliminated it seems that the problem must be a short in the wiring somewhere. I have looked and found no blown fuse or open fusable links. The short must be minor enough not blow a fuse but major enough to pull down the voltage to the ECM / injectors. May have a problem with the start circuit getting grounded?

 

If you read my original post about taking one sensor out at a time, you'll force the ECM into limp home mode and maybe it will start using the KAL PACK. If the car didn't start on one of the sensors being disconnected then you should place close attention to that sensor and its harness. Try everything, O2, EGR, coolant temp, air intake temp, MAF, purge canister valve, AIR pump circuit and anything else that i missed here.

 

OK you are 100 % sure at your injector’s fire correctly.
It must be ignition, have you unplug a sparkplug and check sparks.

It must have a clear blue colour, absolutely not yellow and have a length of >15 mm and have a distinctive “tick” sound.


Kjell

 

The spark is bigger and brighter than ever with all these new parts. The fuel injection circuit seems to be working but the actual injectors are still not firing...no gas is getting through them. I pulled a plug to check and not even a hint of gas smell.

I found this on "somethings wrong" post.

zr1fred wrote:
"I had that same problem on and 89 I bought from a forum member (he couldn't figure it out either). I had another 89 sitting here so parts were not a problem. I eliminated everything but the injectors (they ohmed out okay). Put new Ford injectors in, and the problem went away. I'm not sure why it fixed it ( I resisted doing it until I'd tryed everything else, still doesn't make sense), but it did."

I'm starting to think that ingnition switch's "run" position is worn out-causing a low amp situation. True - we know we have +12 volts coming from it but these ingition switches have a huge amp loads running through them. Seems like a switched relay should have be used to carry the voltage/amps rather than just the ingition switch.

 

If the ignition switch run position was bad, that doesn't explain why the engine runs on ether.

If you have the original Multec (grey colored body) injectors, sooner or latter you'll need to replace them. The coil is exposed to the gasoline and eventually the insulation coating on the windings short out. It's just a matter of time.

Have you tried pulling one injector connector at a time, try startiing and if it doesn't start, reconnect the connector and move on to a different injector?

 

Agree with Hooked on Vettes,

You have gas in the rails BUT none in the cylinders so the main component in between are the injectors. I had problems last year and turned out 1 injector in each bank was bad, shutting both banks down at once.

 

I'm just trying to track down any loose ends. I agree with you on the "run" position thing...I measure voltage to the HEI coil and it is solid 12v during cranking. Yep - did that pull one at a time and try to start thing....still a no go. While I was looking for "shorted wires" found a bunch of butt splices under the dash 8 to be exact (previous owners doing- see pic below). 1 splice was in line with the pink ignition wire froim the switch - I was going to remove the butt splices anyway so while I was at it I cut the splice out ohmed the switch (found it to be good-in all positions)then since the wire was already cut...I hooked 12v directly up to the other side which directly feeds the HEI coil/ECM and INJ 1/2 banks then tried to start it. Same result....still a no go. Yeah - I think it is injector time!

Looks like it is going to stay a "mystery surrounded by a riddle wrapped in and enigma." (post #2)

Thanks for the help guys I'm going to order some "new non micro tech" injectors. I'll post again with the results.

 

Injectors are ordered!

 

Is it possible that the VATS module is preventing your car from starting? If the ECM is not getting the proper signal from the VATS module, it wont activate the fuel injectors. Check to see if this is the case. You have some crimped wiring under the dash. Maybe when it rained, some condensation got into the wiring and the VATS module measured the resistance wrong ( in the pellet of your ignition key, or a bypass resistor). Check the circuit diagrams in your manual and compare it to what you have. The best way to bypass VATS is to get the EPROM in the ECM reprogrammed to ignore VATS. Hope this helps.

 

This is an excerpt from www.search-autoparts.com "The older Passkey systems all have a pellet imbedded in
the ignition key that communicates with the Theft
Deterrent Module (TDM). On VATS and Passkey I, the
TDM is hidden deep in the dashboard. On Passkey II, the
TDM is built into the Body Control Module (BCM). The
key’s visible pellet is a resistor, and you can read its value by
touching meter probes to the contacts on either side of the
pellet.With the key in the ignition, the pellet touches contacts
in the lock cylinder. These contacts are wired to the
TDM, which reads the value of the resistor to identify the
key. If the resistance is correct, the TDM sends a pulsewidth
modulated signal to the PCM" or ECM" which then enables the
fuel injectors. The TDM also operates the Theft Deterrent
Relay (TDR) that allows power to reach the starter solenoid
when the key is turned to the START position." Apparently the TDR was disabled in your car, so you were able to crank her over. But since the TDM is not getting the right ohm reading from the pellet or bypass resistor (because of the heavy rain and subsequent corrosion on the crimped wiring or lock cylinder ) the ECM is not getting the proper pulse width modulated signal, therefore your fuel injectors are not firing. Fix this problem and then your car will start.

 

It's also possible that the tdm module is dead and needs replacing. Here is a link to diagnose the VATS.

http://sethirdgen.org/vats.htm

I'm quite certain that this is the problem with your vehicle.

 

Trackman44:

Read the whole thread post - I'm quite certain that this is not the problem as all this has been tested, checked or bypassed already.

The "new" BOSCH injectors will be here today. If the car starts with the "old" injectors removed then the "old" injector coils have a high current related issue. A high current problems across injectors can only be seen with "O" scope. I suspect that the insulation around wires for the injector coils has been worn/eaten away over time effectively creating a short circuit when 12v is applied across the coil. When a short across the coils happens the length or # of turns of the coil is reduced which reduces the strength of the coil and its ability to overcome the strength of the return spring and fuel pressure within the rail itself -- so the injectors themselves are not opening or are barely openning. The problem is complicated by the injector's coils themselves. Since the coils are - still intact - this is why the ohms tests indicates the "good" 16.8 reading. The ohms test is only effective to determine is the coil is "open/broken" or if it suffers from a "hard shorted" condition.

So gasoline is the current catalyst for the shorting/high current issue. Gasoline is typically a bad conductor for electricity but if you introduce water, metal, rust, salt or whatever to it conductivity is increased significantly. Judging the amount of rust on my fuel pump assembly inside my tank it is pretty clear that water has in fact been in there-I'm sure the injectors will look the same what internally. I recently moved about 4 months ago to a new area of town and I'm suspecting that I've been consistantly using a gas station with really bad bad bad contaminanted gas. When I removed the questionable gas from the car and purchased new gas from the same station (bad move on my part I guess.....hind sight is 20/20) and put it into the car.

If anybody is interested in reading more info or seeing what a fuel injector sign wave should or should not look like check this link out:
http://www.automotivetestsolutions.c...rWaveforms.htm