Hey, I am a CHIEF, USN.

 

I will back pedal and say too many cooks in the kitchen

 

BRAVO ZULU Chief; you're the backbone of the World's Greatest Navy!

 

Thanks Mike, Hoo Yah US NAVY.

 

Alright, now, Steve, you're starting to tread on dangerous ground, LOL

Yea, well at least you guys have a better football team, LOL.

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

Jake, many of my friends went to and just retired from West Point. I lived there for 7 years, and my Dad was stationed there. I love the place, but, I joined the Navy because of that place being in my face so much. Had to be a rebel

 

You thinK??
2005 Navy 42–23 Lincoln Financial Field Philadelphia, PA Navy 50-49-7
2006 Navy 26–14 Lincoln Financial Field Philadelphia, PA Navy 51-49-7
2007 Navy 38–3 M&T Bank Stadium Baltimore, MD Navy 52-49-7
2008 Navy 34–0 Lincoln Financial Field Philadelphia, PA Navy 53-49-7
2009 Navy 17–3 Lincoln Financial Field Philadelphia, PA Navy 54-49-7

 

Dang, have we ever digressed.

 

LOL. I GOTTCHA! I remember you telling me that. And to think, I went Air Force!

Hey, I caught Ryan (my son) in the crowd at the Army/Navy game. Saved it on my DVR. He even had his cover on straight - LOL

Just met another Forum member, Andy, who's got a son there too; he's a YUK (2nd year). Natuarally we exchanged info.

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

I just bought his first pair of Lieutenant's bars, 22K Gold versions! Talk about over-kill, LOL.

. . . and the digression rolls on . . .

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

The graduation ceremonies are great. The whole week prior to, the security if a leader show up (Him or Biden will). Its great if you can tour the base, the outer lying lakes, the mint etc etc. As a youngin', I was able to see allot of stuff, due to Dad. Awesome base, so much history.

 

Okay Chiefs.........

One thing we haven't touched on and that is valve seals, or did we, I can't remember.

Anyway, when I got these springs they had seals that did not fit my guides very well. I couldn't get them to go down far enough to clear the valve retainer when the valve opened up. I went to NAPA an got a stock replacement seal and installed them. They had a metal case with a small spring around the top. I tapped them down with a socket until the seal hit the guide. Will these be okay or should i have gotten another type that would work better with the double spring. As far as I know they are doing okay. I get some smoke at start up but very little. More when I rev the engine up. It's mostly black though not bluish like oil smoke is.

I'm still waiting on those guide plates, hopefully today. Bad time of year to ordering stuff I guess.

 

Are they little white seals? Then they are okay. Black smoke is fuel, rich condition, which is kinda normal on a modified engine when you hit it.

 

Sorry Mike and Steve, I have to disagree with their use. Those aren't the recommended type for a street engine; this conclusion goes back many years. One work around guys use to use was to remove the metal ring. To me, it made better sense to just use different seals.

When I bought my AFR heads (not from AFR though but from the previous owner), they had those very seals installed. Didn't take but a few minutes for them to find their way into the nearest trash can. Ryan's new Dart Pro 1s, however, didn't come with same type or they would have met the same fate.

Now, don't necessarily take my word for it, you use GOOGLE to research what others say about them. You cold also call AFR and Dart, etc. Seems those type seals restrict oil too much resulting in accelerated guide wear.

Best I can do is pass along what little stuff I've learned over the years.

 

I thought about this then decided I just can't let it go by.

Like Pete said, somehow things get posted and when no one says "Ah, NO, don't do that! It's not the recommended way", it gets passed around just as if it's correct and the right thing to do.

This is yet another one of them. Somehow some have come to believe that cranking the engine to build oil pressure to prime the oiling system is "okay". Well, here I am again, saying, NOPE, not okay and don't do it that way.

When the lifters are removed from the block, the oil galleries bleed down and become almost empty of oil. Priming, with the proper priming tool, is the correct way to prime an engine's oiling system.

I suspect the "crank the engine til pressure comes up" is the result of someone not having the tool, too lazy to do it the correct way or just passing along yet more incorrect information.

I researched and tracked down my source so everyone will know that I'm not being arbitrary, disagreeable or just making up this stuff. The below was taken directly from Crane:

Do Hydraulic Lifters Need to be Primed with Oil?
Many people mistakenly believe that hydraulic lifters must be soaked in oil overnight and be hand pumped up with a pushrod before installing into a new engine, however this is not necessary. In fact, this could cause the lifter to act as a "solid" and prevent obtaining proper preload. What is very necessary is the priming of the entire engine's oil system before starting up a new engine for the first time. This is done by turning the oil pump with a drill motor to force oil throughout the entire engine. Crane Cams offers oil pump primers for Chevrolet and Ford engines.

On this and other Forums I find myself harping on the concept of "Attention to Detail". This is another one of those "Details" You'd be absolutely amazed at what some of those guys do, all the while thinking it's "okay" to do it.

Just trying to keep you from having any more problems down the road.

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

It doesn't say not to do it Jake. It just says they have a priming tool to sell you if you need one. If this was a brand new motor I had I might have to get the tool but since it isn't the starter is going to have to do this time. I see your point though. I will go ahead and install the lifters and let the oil drip off and out.

As for the valve seals.....Steve, no they weren't white. They have a plain metal casing with a spring around the top. The ones you are reffering to sound like umbrella seals. They weren't beat up or anything so I'm leaving them in. As I have mentioned before I hope to either get these heads redone or get new ones not to far off so it's not like they are permanent.

Guide plates finally arrived. As STL94LT1 said no difference in the width of the slot. However, there is a slight difference in the depth of the slot (deeper) and I can see on several of the ones I had that they had a rub mark from the push rod.

It's going to be tomorrow before I can get back to it. I should have it fired up on Sat. sometime. I was hoping I could get it to a dyno before Christmas but that isn't going to happen. Whether it runs right or not it'll sure be good to sit back in it and feel it running. I've missed this damn car!

 

See, Mike, that's the kind of thinking I'm trying so hard to discourage. Thinking that all some company wants to do is sell a tool. What I'm reading is another example of Rationalization that I read so often on Forums like these. "Yea, I know it's not correct but it's okay because . . ." I just went through something like this on another Forum with a guy who's runnng the wrong pushrod length. Please, don't fall into that trap.

This is another one of those incorrect information and "Attention to Details" things that too many guys gloss over as if it doesn't make any difference. All these "little" things do add up.

I only posted Crane's comments for emphasis and as an example. Using a priming tool is the industry standand for priming an engine, in the same category as using a torque wrench. It's not just Crane, or any other company that sells tools for that matter, it's well respected, professional engine builders all across the country, etc. I mean it's such a long ago developed and accepted procedure I was a surprised when I first saw guys come up with the "crank the engine way". I mean, where does all this kind of stuff come from anyway? GEEEEEZZZZZZ!

When I changed cams and heads on my son's engine a few months ago, guess what I did? Right. If it was "okay" to just crank the engine don't you think I'd have done that? It would have been easier to have just turned the ignition key. But I know better.

AutoZone, Advanced, or O'Reilly"s probably have the tool for loan for free, too.

To put it bluntly, the crank the engine way is 'flat' wrong. In fact, the engine should be primed until oil flows freely - without any air bubbles exiting - from all the rockers. That'll take a several minutes since the engine has to be manually turned to get all of them oiling.

But all I can do is give the best advice I can. I can't force anyone to follow it.
As always, your choice.

Best of luck.

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

And once agin Jake I see your point and it's excellent advice. But....like I said, if it was a NEW or REBUILT engine I would most likely do it. Being it's not the starter is going to have to do. Hey it's better than nothing. Look at it this way. Say a guy has a car that has set up for say a year. Is he going to take the intake off (if it's an LT1 with no distributor hole) to install the cranking tool and turn the engine over? Probably not. Is it ok to crank it? Probably will be because everything has been run and broke in. Now, my car has been sitting couple of months. I'm sure most of the oil has drained off by now but probably not all of it. When I did this the first time I cranked it until I got oil pressure which stopped at 70lbs. I waited a little while then went back and did it again. So you see, I'm not just cranking it a couple of times and then firing it up. Whether is the right way or not it's going to have to do and I DO appreciate the advice!

 

Here's the part you must have missed.

"What is very necessary is the priming of the entire engine's oil system before starting up a new engine for the first time. This is done by turning the oil pump with a drill motor to force oil throughout the entire engine."

Remember the oil galleries feeding the valve train will be empty of oil as well as the lifters, and pushrods.

Your call, I'm through with it.

Jake

West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!

 

This is not a dry new long block. this motor ran a couple or three weeks ago. The original problem doesn't have anything to do with how he primes the engine now and quite honestly, I think you are treating the thing like it is fine china. c'mon, it's a cast iron small block. they aren't known to have inherent oiling problems. there may be the smallest amount of air near the lifter bores, but the galleys should be primed already.

I think one should just let the man put it together and stay focused on the original diagnosis.

To me this is like worrying if the guy set tools on his hood and roof without a towel..I could care less if he scratches the car while he fixes it, it still is going to get fixed in the end.