yet another 160* thermostat thread
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Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2001
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From: Winchester VA
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Santa Maria CA
Some of you may or may not be familiar with Arron Johnson. He's the owner of Badass Racing Engines who's been building monster performance engines since the 70's. He's built more engines that probably anyone on this forum. He's also the official install guy for Edlebrock carb installation DVD's and the creator of his own Power Building Video DVD series.
Here's are his thoughts about this no-stat temp argument on his site:
In text books, you'll read that by removing the T-stat, the engine will run hotter because the water passes through the radiator so fast that the radiator doesn’t have time to cool it down. I have to tell you... this isn’t my first day. I've been doing this for about 30 years, and to this day, I have NEVER seen an engine run warmer when the T-stat was removed... NEVER. They have always ran cooler for me, and this goes for EVERY Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, flathead, in-line, pancake, stock, performance, race or whatever kind of engine you can think of, and we’re talking hundreds and hundreds of cars and trucks, not a just a couple.
I'll just add this. I've pulled the t-stats on various cars I've worked on in the past when diagnosing cooling problems and every single time I've ran one on the road with no stat it always ran COOLER with no stat never hotter not matter what kind of car it was.
Here's are his thoughts about this no-stat temp argument on his site:
In text books, you'll read that by removing the T-stat, the engine will run hotter because the water passes through the radiator so fast that the radiator doesn’t have time to cool it down. I have to tell you... this isn’t my first day. I've been doing this for about 30 years, and to this day, I have NEVER seen an engine run warmer when the T-stat was removed... NEVER. They have always ran cooler for me, and this goes for EVERY Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, flathead, in-line, pancake, stock, performance, race or whatever kind of engine you can think of, and we’re talking hundreds and hundreds of cars and trucks, not a just a couple.
I'll just add this. I've pulled the t-stats on various cars I've worked on in the past when diagnosing cooling problems and every single time I've ran one on the road with no stat it always ran COOLER with no stat never hotter not matter what kind of car it was.
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
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From: Lake Junaluska North Carolina
Back to the coolant speed through the system... If you heat an empty pot to red hot on the stove then take it off the heat and pour a cup of water in it,hold it for 10 seconds then measure the temp. then wait 10 more seconds and measure the temp. Bet the water is hotter the second recording. however, we really want to know how much we reduced the pot temp.
So
heat the pot to a steady temp...
and do your own experiment....
Or
Talk to a few people who actually have experimented with different setups in the racing community.
Its just interesting how we can pencil whip all the physics, but isnt the question basically. Does relative time cooling vs time heating mean anything? Or should we continue to debate like informing everyone it takes aprox. one calore to raise the temp one degree (basically energy conversion -ie speed to heat in brakes) except for two different areas. one area being from 211 deg to 212 deg under 29.92 pressure. It takes 100 calores... but then your head starts fog when you realize the cooling system is under pressure... and for good reason. YE HAAAA! spin it up.... or talk to your favorite mech. he or she has experience....
Does it make sense ...at some point if the radiator is big enough you can flow unrestricted... so if it is big enough to begin with at max flow then the temo is just for heat up and min temp. not max RIGHT? hum?
Call Jack Roush, DEI or Cowboy at Hendrix...
So
heat the pot to a steady temp...
and do your own experiment....
Or
Talk to a few people who actually have experimented with different setups in the racing community.
Its just interesting how we can pencil whip all the physics, but isnt the question basically. Does relative time cooling vs time heating mean anything? Or should we continue to debate like informing everyone it takes aprox. one calore to raise the temp one degree (basically energy conversion -ie speed to heat in brakes) except for two different areas. one area being from 211 deg to 212 deg under 29.92 pressure. It takes 100 calores... but then your head starts fog when you realize the cooling system is under pressure... and for good reason. YE HAAAA! spin it up.... or talk to your favorite mech. he or she has experience....
Does it make sense ...at some point if the radiator is big enough you can flow unrestricted... so if it is big enough to begin with at max flow then the temo is just for heat up and min temp. not max RIGHT? hum?
Call Jack Roush, DEI or Cowboy at Hendrix...
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Joined: Oct 2004
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
Theories are just that, theories. There is some basis for them and in many circumstances Im sure they prove true. However put that into real life situations and Ill bet they dont all hold water.
GM put thermostats in for a reason it wasnt a novelty.
Never seen a radiator get ballooned before try running your car hard without a stat worse yet put a high flow pump on it. Warm climates, after some extended driving Im betting the car will heat up.
So maybe some guys have tested a lot of stuff and had thier results but that certainly doesnt make it gospel.
GM put thermostats in for a reason it wasnt a novelty.
Never seen a radiator get ballooned before try running your car hard without a stat worse yet put a high flow pump on it. Warm climates, after some extended driving Im betting the car will heat up.
So maybe some guys have tested a lot of stuff and had thier results but that certainly doesnt make it gospel.
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Team Owner
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From: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
St. Jude '03 thru '24
It must be some kind of plot to ruin our engines.......
So my question is why doesn't everyone just remove the t-stat?
If that is the solution?
Riddle me this oh wise ones!
Why bother running a t-stat?
If all your experience and text books tell you an engine will run cooler without, then what do your text books tell us now?
Last edited by JrRifleCoach; Nov 6, 2010 at 01:21 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 54,124
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From: Cincinnati, Oh USA
Theories are just that, theories. There is some basis for them and in many circumstances Im sure they prove true. However put that into real life situations and Ill bet they dont all hold water.
GM put thermostats in for a reason it wasnt a novelty.
Never seen a radiator get ballooned before try running your car hard without a stat worse yet put a high flow pump on it. Warm climates, after some extended driving Im betting the car will heat up.
So maybe some guys have tested a lot of stuff and had thier results but that certainly doesnt make it gospel.
GM put thermostats in for a reason it wasnt a novelty.
Never seen a radiator get ballooned before try running your car hard without a stat worse yet put a high flow pump on it. Warm climates, after some extended driving Im betting the car will heat up.
So maybe some guys have tested a lot of stuff and had thier results but that certainly doesnt make it gospel.
You insist the coolant has to have time to cool off in the radiator, but you will not consider that at the same time it is picking up heat in the engine. The heat flow (BTU/sec) out of a radiator is determined by the temperature difference between the coolant and the air passing through the radiator and the GPH. . Since the number of gallons of antifreeze is fixed in an engine, the more BTU you remove from it, the lower its temperature will become. This is exactly what the heat flow equation says and it is why the GPH is in the equation, the faster you move water through the radiator, the more heat is removed. Removing the thermostat, or opening the thermostat wider, causes lower coolant temperatures.
Last edited by jfb; Nov 6, 2010 at 01:40 PM.
Team Owner
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From: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
St. Jude '03 thru '24
Your evading the question.
Why are t-stats in every engine?
The point that removing the t-stat will cause the engine to run cooler is moot at this point.
If we on this board are going to convince newbs that that pulling their t-stat is the answer to overheating,
then you also have the responsibility to justify why a t-stat is include by the general to begin with.
Why are t-stats in every engine?
The point that removing the t-stat will cause the engine to run cooler is moot at this point.
If we on this board are going to convince newbs that that pulling their t-stat is the answer to overheating,
then you also have the responsibility to justify why a t-stat is include by the general to begin with.
Last edited by JrRifleCoach; Nov 6, 2010 at 01:09 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 54,124
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From: Cincinnati, Oh USA
Your evading the question.
Why are t-stats in every engine?
The point that removing the t-stat will cause the engine to run cooler is moot at this point.
If we on this board are going to convince newbs that that pulling their t-stat is the answer to overheating,
then you also have the responsibility to justify why a t-stat is include by the general to begin with.
Why are t-stats in every engine?
The point that removing the t-stat will cause the engine to run cooler is moot at this point.
If we on this board are going to convince newbs that that pulling their t-stat is the answer to overheating,
then you also have the responsibility to justify why a t-stat is include by the general to begin with.
Last edited by jfb; Nov 6, 2010 at 01:42 PM.
Team Owner
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From: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
St. Jude '03 thru '24
The question isn't moot, even you wrongly claim that removing the thermostat causes the coolant temperature to increase. It has been said here and many times in these threads that thermostats allow for the fastest warm up time and set the minimum temperature that the engine will run. IC engines experience accelerated wear at low temperatures, they experience lower fuel mileage and higher emmisions, everything the manufacturers and the car owners don't want.
But that doing so will cause premature engine damage and decreased fuel economy.
Ahh, so we reduce temperature and f*&^ up the engine in the process.
I see your point now. And I agree that removing the t-stat will reduce temperature.
I also understand why you won't take me up on my offer to pull yours.
Thanks for the insight
PS: this is exactly why I spent the extra money to install a DeWitts radiator and a fresh 190 stat in my 86.
I knew that listening to some of the experts on this board would only get me into further trouble.
.
Last edited by JrRifleCoach; Nov 6, 2010 at 02:08 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
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From: Lake Junaluska North Carolina
KISS method.
over time; faster moving = more moving = more cooling ...this is my KISS logic.
A. T-stat might be to allow for warmer heater action.....
B. Allows the engine to get to a "normal operating temp" quicker so oil and metal to metal moving parts / tollerances and lubrication is within designed specs. too cool not good too hot not good.
C. In cold climates delete the t-stat and see what happens.... its not the no heat out of the heater that is the main proplem. Start up friction is extended or is continious since oil doesnt get up to op temp. Too cool engine oil in effect robs HP and gas milages ( wait--i know they developed the zero weight oils for guys who run no T-stats..right... sure)
D. I guess if you start up in 100 degree amb. temp each time and idle around in heavy traffic all day your ok. with no T-stat... but if you ever get to run fast in high gear i think you will over cool and basically crate what they call "themal shock". Heat and metal is a interesting thing. Look up the SR-71 it grew 12" longer during flight..so do you think if you can limit the temp swings in your engine both in range and freq... wouldn't be better?.
Try this-- look up what happens to aircooled aircraft recip combustion engines when you pull the power from cruise to idle to approach and land...Shock cooling! And it isn't good for long living engines. The hint is to moderate your engine temps so that means both top end and low end. Right? If you have over heat problems and your T-stat opens its not the T-stat, you have other problems. Lower T-stat is mainly to help keep the head and intake cooler for performance reasons. But as always do this with-in reason more is not always better. I would say alot of motor heads would say hot oil and cool intake charge is the best. But you can not take that to mean boil the oil and freeze the intake...
Right?
over time; faster moving = more moving = more cooling ...this is my KISS logic.
A. T-stat might be to allow for warmer heater action.....
B. Allows the engine to get to a "normal operating temp" quicker so oil and metal to metal moving parts / tollerances and lubrication is within designed specs. too cool not good too hot not good.
C. In cold climates delete the t-stat and see what happens.... its not the no heat out of the heater that is the main proplem. Start up friction is extended or is continious since oil doesnt get up to op temp. Too cool engine oil in effect robs HP and gas milages ( wait--i know they developed the zero weight oils for guys who run no T-stats..right... sure)
D. I guess if you start up in 100 degree amb. temp each time and idle around in heavy traffic all day your ok. with no T-stat... but if you ever get to run fast in high gear i think you will over cool and basically crate what they call "themal shock". Heat and metal is a interesting thing. Look up the SR-71 it grew 12" longer during flight..so do you think if you can limit the temp swings in your engine both in range and freq... wouldn't be better?.
Try this-- look up what happens to aircooled aircraft recip combustion engines when you pull the power from cruise to idle to approach and land...Shock cooling! And it isn't good for long living engines. The hint is to moderate your engine temps so that means both top end and low end. Right? If you have over heat problems and your T-stat opens its not the T-stat, you have other problems. Lower T-stat is mainly to help keep the head and intake cooler for performance reasons. But as always do this with-in reason more is not always better. I would say alot of motor heads would say hot oil and cool intake charge is the best. But you can not take that to mean boil the oil and freeze the intake...
Right?
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,082
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From: Conowingo Maryland
Automotive
Main article: Wax thermostatic element
Car engine thermostatPerhaps the best example of purely mechanical technology in widespread use today is the internal combustion engine cooling thermostat. These are used to maintain the core temperature of the engine at its optimum operating temperature by regulating the flow of coolant to an external heat sink, usually an air cooled radiator. Also, research in the 1920's showed that cylinder wear was aggravated by condensation of fuel when it contacted a cool cylinder wall which removed the oil film, and the development of the automatic thermostat in the 1930's provided a solution to this problem by ensuring fast engine warm-up[3].
This type of thermostat operates mechanically. It makes use of a wax pellet inside a sealed chamber. The wax is solid at low temperatures but as the engine heats up the wax melts and expands. The sealed chamber has an expansion provision that operates a rod which opens a valve when the operating temperature is exceeded. The operating temperature is fixed, but is determined by the specific composition of the wax, so thermostats of this type are available to maintain different temperatures, typically in the range of 70 to 90°C (160 to 200°F). Modern engines run hot, that is, over 80°C (180°F), in order to run more efficiently and to reduce the emission of pollutants. Most thermostats have a small bypass hole to vent any gas that might get into the system, e.g., air introduced during coolant replacement, which also allows a small flow of coolant past the thermostat when it is closed. This bypass flow ensures that the thermostat experiences the temperature change in the coolant as the engine heats up; without it a stagnant region of coolant around the thermostat could shield it from temperature changes in the coolant adjacent to the combustion chambers and cylinder bores.
While the thermostat is closed, there is no flow of coolant in the loop allowing the combustion chambers to warm up rapidly. The thermostat stays closed until the coolant temperature reaches the nominal thermostat opening temperature. The thermostat then progressively opens as the coolant temperature increases to the optimum operating temperature, increasing the coolant flow to the radiator. Once the optimum operating temperature is reached, the thermostat progressively increases or decreases its opening in response to temperature changes, dynamically balancing the coolant recirculation flow and coolant flow to the radiator to maintain the engine temperature in the optimum range as engine heat output, vehicle speed, and outside ambient temperature change. Under normal operating conditions the thermostat is open to about half of its stroke travel, so that it can open further or reduce its opening to react to changes in operating conditions. A correctly designed thermostat will never be fully open or fully closed while the engine is operating normally, or overheating or overcooling would occur. For instance,
If more cooling is required, e.g., in response to an increase in engine heat output which causes the coolant temperature to rise, the thermostat will increase its opening to allow more coolant to flow through the radiator and increase engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully open, then it would not be able to increase the flow of coolant to the radiator, hence there would be no more cooling capacity available, and the increase in heat output by the engine would result in overheating.
If less cooling is required, e.g., in response to decrease in ambient temperature which causes the coolant temperature to fall, the thermostat will decrease its opening to restrict the coolant flow through the radiator and reduce engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully closed, then it would not be able to reduce cooling in response to the fall in coolant temperature, and the engine temperature would fall below the optimum operating range.
Double valve engine thermostatEngines which require a tighter control of temperature, as they are sensitive to "Thermal shock" caused by surges of coolant, may use a "constant inlet temperature" system. In this arrangement the inlet cooling to the engine is controlled by double-valve thermostat which mixes a re-circulating sensing flow with the radiator cooling flow. These employ a single capsule, but have two valve discs. Thus a very compact, and simple but effective, control function is achieved.
The wax product used within the thermostat requires a specific process to produce. Unlike a standard paraffin wax, which has a relatively wide range of carbon chain lengths, a wax used in the thermostat application has a very narrow range of carbon molecule chains. The extent of the chains is usually determined by the melting characteristics demanded by the specific end application. To manufacture a product in this manner requires very precise levels of distillation, which is difficult or impossible for most wax refineries.
Main article: Wax thermostatic element
Car engine thermostatPerhaps the best example of purely mechanical technology in widespread use today is the internal combustion engine cooling thermostat. These are used to maintain the core temperature of the engine at its optimum operating temperature by regulating the flow of coolant to an external heat sink, usually an air cooled radiator. Also, research in the 1920's showed that cylinder wear was aggravated by condensation of fuel when it contacted a cool cylinder wall which removed the oil film, and the development of the automatic thermostat in the 1930's provided a solution to this problem by ensuring fast engine warm-up[3].
This type of thermostat operates mechanically. It makes use of a wax pellet inside a sealed chamber. The wax is solid at low temperatures but as the engine heats up the wax melts and expands. The sealed chamber has an expansion provision that operates a rod which opens a valve when the operating temperature is exceeded. The operating temperature is fixed, but is determined by the specific composition of the wax, so thermostats of this type are available to maintain different temperatures, typically in the range of 70 to 90°C (160 to 200°F). Modern engines run hot, that is, over 80°C (180°F), in order to run more efficiently and to reduce the emission of pollutants. Most thermostats have a small bypass hole to vent any gas that might get into the system, e.g., air introduced during coolant replacement, which also allows a small flow of coolant past the thermostat when it is closed. This bypass flow ensures that the thermostat experiences the temperature change in the coolant as the engine heats up; without it a stagnant region of coolant around the thermostat could shield it from temperature changes in the coolant adjacent to the combustion chambers and cylinder bores.
While the thermostat is closed, there is no flow of coolant in the loop allowing the combustion chambers to warm up rapidly. The thermostat stays closed until the coolant temperature reaches the nominal thermostat opening temperature. The thermostat then progressively opens as the coolant temperature increases to the optimum operating temperature, increasing the coolant flow to the radiator. Once the optimum operating temperature is reached, the thermostat progressively increases or decreases its opening in response to temperature changes, dynamically balancing the coolant recirculation flow and coolant flow to the radiator to maintain the engine temperature in the optimum range as engine heat output, vehicle speed, and outside ambient temperature change. Under normal operating conditions the thermostat is open to about half of its stroke travel, so that it can open further or reduce its opening to react to changes in operating conditions. A correctly designed thermostat will never be fully open or fully closed while the engine is operating normally, or overheating or overcooling would occur. For instance,
If more cooling is required, e.g., in response to an increase in engine heat output which causes the coolant temperature to rise, the thermostat will increase its opening to allow more coolant to flow through the radiator and increase engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully open, then it would not be able to increase the flow of coolant to the radiator, hence there would be no more cooling capacity available, and the increase in heat output by the engine would result in overheating.
If less cooling is required, e.g., in response to decrease in ambient temperature which causes the coolant temperature to fall, the thermostat will decrease its opening to restrict the coolant flow through the radiator and reduce engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully closed, then it would not be able to reduce cooling in response to the fall in coolant temperature, and the engine temperature would fall below the optimum operating range.
Double valve engine thermostatEngines which require a tighter control of temperature, as they are sensitive to "Thermal shock" caused by surges of coolant, may use a "constant inlet temperature" system. In this arrangement the inlet cooling to the engine is controlled by double-valve thermostat which mixes a re-circulating sensing flow with the radiator cooling flow. These employ a single capsule, but have two valve discs. Thus a very compact, and simple but effective, control function is achieved.
The wax product used within the thermostat requires a specific process to produce. Unlike a standard paraffin wax, which has a relatively wide range of carbon chain lengths, a wax used in the thermostat application has a very narrow range of carbon molecule chains. The extent of the chains is usually determined by the melting characteristics demanded by the specific end application. To manufacture a product in this manner requires very precise levels of distillation, which is difficult or impossible for most wax refineries.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,485
Likes: 566
From: Clearwater Florida
Here's my 2 cents :
restricting water flow to reduce coolant speed was invented by those rednecks that drive in circles for 2 1/2 to 3 hours at engine speeds far in excess of 6000 rpm and around 190 mph
Todays cars with overdrive and warp speed are turning less than 2000 rpm up to say 50 mph and it helps to move the coolant a little faster
Granny needs a thermostat because the church and grocery store are both within 3 miles of her house
ALL of y'all north of Florida need 'em to prevent frostbite while driving from October through March
My car runs the same temps ( 175-195 ) with or without a stat as long as the air temp is over 70 ... under that it just starts makin huge power ... and thats what I'm all about ...
...
restricting water flow to reduce coolant speed was invented by those rednecks that drive in circles for 2 1/2 to 3 hours at engine speeds far in excess of 6000 rpm and around 190 mph
Todays cars with overdrive and warp speed are turning less than 2000 rpm up to say 50 mph and it helps to move the coolant a little faster
Granny needs a thermostat because the church and grocery store are both within 3 miles of her house
ALL of y'all north of Florida need 'em to prevent frostbite while driving from October through March
My car runs the same temps ( 175-195 ) with or without a stat as long as the air temp is over 70 ... under that it just starts makin huge power ... and thats what I'm all about ...
...
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Lake Junaluska North Carolina
There you have it.. look at a climatic chart....
What state has the superbowl of NASCAR racing and at least two stops on the tour?
I love rednecks!..., they are a fun crowd!
POPCORN SUTTON said when I turned 16 I discoverd Gasoline and Women... I've been crazy ever since!
Look up Popcorn! he was even interviewed by johny knoxville ...its on youtube.. Check it out so we can move on to a new topic....
What state has the superbowl of NASCAR racing and at least two stops on the tour?
I love rednecks!..., they are a fun crowd!
POPCORN SUTTON said when I turned 16 I discoverd Gasoline and Women... I've been crazy ever since!
Look up Popcorn! he was even interviewed by johny knoxville ...its on youtube.. Check it out so we can move on to a new topic....