Change Bearings by Dropping Pan?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
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From: Lynchburg, VA
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 22
I always use some sort of wood block or chunk of wood to insulate whatever I'm applying the force of the jack against...
I'm sure you know to do that or take some kind of precaution against nicks and dings.
I've got such a collection of small wood blocks and scraps that I could build a butcher block table ! Be a lil greasy, but that's ok.
Special purpose wood chunks....got some with holes drilled so they can be a consistent "guide" when drilling or fabricating a mount... others like in this case that have a "V" cut into the end of a 2x4 to catch and hold a round shaft...or anything that's round and might try to slip off...
the more work you start doing at home/yourself, the more "special tools" you will create and collect..
I'm sure you know to do that or take some kind of precaution against nicks and dings.
I've got such a collection of small wood blocks and scraps that I could build a butcher block table ! Be a lil greasy, but that's ok.
Special purpose wood chunks....got some with holes drilled so they can be a consistent "guide" when drilling or fabricating a mount... others like in this case that have a "V" cut into the end of a 2x4 to catch and hold a round shaft...or anything that's round and might try to slip off...
the more work you start doing at home/yourself, the more "special tools" you will create and collect..
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
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From: Lynchburg, VA
I called around and I can get the parts cheaper online, even with shipping.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
And is that to seat the bearing in the cap or to seat the cap against the block?
If it's the latter, is there anything special I need to do to put the bearing back in its cap, or do I just tap it back in?
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,660
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
Lightly tapping ensures a seated cap and make sure all matting surfaces r clean and free of any and all debris on the cap and block and look real careful at all the corners on both.
If u dont have a rubber mallet just use a 2x4 and set it on the cap and whack the other end with a reg hammer. All this makes sure its seated
If u dont have a rubber mallet just use a 2x4 and set it on the cap and whack the other end with a reg hammer. All this makes sure its seated
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
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From: Lynchburg, VA
Okay, I pulled the front main bearing cap to plastigage it and I noticed on the back of the bearing it says .0006US. Does this mean the bearing is .0006" bigger than standard?
That bearing was also not snug in its cap, unlike the rear bearing.
Are bearing caps polar? That is, can you put them on backward or does it not matter?
That bearing was also not snug in its cap, unlike the rear bearing.
Are bearing caps polar? That is, can you put them on backward or does it not matter?
Last edited by C4ProjectCar; Aug 10, 2014 at 06:23 PM.
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
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From: Lynchburg, VA
Yea and I think only the factory were able to get those to install on the assy line. I think those r real hard to find and may not even be around anymore.
If u can check the clearance and look at all the others and gauge those too. You might need the red plasti. It goes .002 to .006 and with the crank pushed into the block, I think ur going to end up in there somewhere.
You need to do all this with each cap at least twice to evaluate ur crank and to see where u go from here and to get the right replacement bearings
If u can check the clearance and look at all the others and gauge those too. You might need the red plasti. It goes .002 to .006 and with the crank pushed into the block, I think ur going to end up in there somewhere.
You need to do all this with each cap at least twice to evaluate ur crank and to see where u go from here and to get the right replacement bearings
And you're saying I need to plastigage each bearing twice?
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas - usually winter in FL
Yes, the caps are polarized – they are installed so the bearing location tangs are located right next to each other – like near the same bolt. If you install them backwards, you might not be able to rotate the crank.
When I plastigage main bearings, I put a piece if thin cardboard - like part of a sparkplug box or a bearing box - between two of the old bearings and the corresponding crank main journal. I have also used a few sheets of plain notebook paper. Snug the respective main caps and this will position the crankshaft tightly against the upper main bearing shells. It is totally useless to plastigage main bearing with the crank hanging down because the weight of the crank will result in the plastigage being distorted - flattened more than it should be. Just snug the main caps with the cardboard in there – do not tighten it too much or you might warp/fracture the cap – just snug it and you will be fine. Or, like others have said, you can use a bottle jack to do the same thing – but remember bottle jacks do in fact leak down a little and they also get in the way. I plastigage bearing only once - that gives me enough information and never had a problem by doing so. Also, do not rotate the crank when plastigaging - it will smear the plastigage and make it meaningless.
I have never seen a 0006 number on a bearing so not exactly sure what that means. These bearings might be selectively fitted at the factory assembly line or it might mean something else – I dunno. It might indicate that particular crank journal is .0006 undersize – we’d refer that as being “six-tenths under.” Kind of confusing but bearings are referred to as being standard or undersize – like “.010 under” because it fits a “ten-under” crank. The bearing shell itself is in fact oversize but they are referred to as being “undersize” because they fit an undersize journal - crazy, huh? So, you have std, one-unders, sometimes two-unders, ten-unders, twenty-unders and thirty-unders.
I use bolts to position and then tighten the main caps – never thought to use a rubber mallet but guess that might work well too. Worth a try anyway since some have already used it.
Some unsolicited advice: When cleaning parts, use neoprene gloves and do it in a well-ventilated area. Most hydrocarbon solvents are skin absorbent –finger nails too –so use gloves to prevent that from happening. Think I paid less than five bucks at Harbor Freight for two hundred gloves – cheap investment. Personally, I use brake cleaner to remove the last bits of oils – again don’t breathe this stuff and keep skin contact to a minimum. Use the Super Tech store brand at Wallys – it’s inexpensive and works very well. Again, don’t breathe this crap – even if it is non-chlorinated.
Hey, this has turned into a very popular thread! LOL! Lots of great help here – keep asking if you have any more questions.
Jake -
When I plastigage main bearings, I put a piece if thin cardboard - like part of a sparkplug box or a bearing box - between two of the old bearings and the corresponding crank main journal. I have also used a few sheets of plain notebook paper. Snug the respective main caps and this will position the crankshaft tightly against the upper main bearing shells. It is totally useless to plastigage main bearing with the crank hanging down because the weight of the crank will result in the plastigage being distorted - flattened more than it should be. Just snug the main caps with the cardboard in there – do not tighten it too much or you might warp/fracture the cap – just snug it and you will be fine. Or, like others have said, you can use a bottle jack to do the same thing – but remember bottle jacks do in fact leak down a little and they also get in the way. I plastigage bearing only once - that gives me enough information and never had a problem by doing so. Also, do not rotate the crank when plastigaging - it will smear the plastigage and make it meaningless.
I have never seen a 0006 number on a bearing so not exactly sure what that means. These bearings might be selectively fitted at the factory assembly line or it might mean something else – I dunno. It might indicate that particular crank journal is .0006 undersize – we’d refer that as being “six-tenths under.” Kind of confusing but bearings are referred to as being standard or undersize – like “.010 under” because it fits a “ten-under” crank. The bearing shell itself is in fact oversize but they are referred to as being “undersize” because they fit an undersize journal - crazy, huh? So, you have std, one-unders, sometimes two-unders, ten-unders, twenty-unders and thirty-unders.
I use bolts to position and then tighten the main caps – never thought to use a rubber mallet but guess that might work well too. Worth a try anyway since some have already used it.
Some unsolicited advice: When cleaning parts, use neoprene gloves and do it in a well-ventilated area. Most hydrocarbon solvents are skin absorbent –finger nails too –so use gloves to prevent that from happening. Think I paid less than five bucks at Harbor Freight for two hundred gloves – cheap investment. Personally, I use brake cleaner to remove the last bits of oils – again don’t breathe this stuff and keep skin contact to a minimum. Use the Super Tech store brand at Wallys – it’s inexpensive and works very well. Again, don’t breathe this crap – even if it is non-chlorinated.
Hey, this has turned into a very popular thread! LOL! Lots of great help here – keep asking if you have any more questions.
Jake -
Last edited by jake corvette; Aug 10, 2014 at 07:19 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
Yes, the caps are polarized – they are installed so the bearing location tangs are located right next to each other – like near the same bolt. If you install them backwards, you might not be able to rotate the crank.
When I plastigage main bearings, I put a piece if thin cardboard - like part of a sparkplug box or a bearing box - between two of the old bearings and the corresponding crank main journal. I have also used a few sheets of plain notebook paper. Snug the respective main caps and this will position the crankshaft tightly against the upper main bearing shells. It is totally useless to plastigage main bearing with the crank hanging down because the weight of the crank will result in the plastigage being distorted - flattened more than it should be. Just snug the main caps with the cardboard in there – do not tighten it too much or you might warp/fracture the cap – just snug it and you will be fine. Or, like others have said, you can use a bottle jack to do the same thing – but remember bottle jacks do in fact leak down a little and they also get in the way. I plastigage bearing only once - that gives me enough information and never had a problem by doing so. Also, do not rotate the crank when plastigaging - it will smear the plastigage and make it meaningless.
I have never seen a 0006 number on a bearing so not exactly sure what that means. These bearings might be selectively fitted at the factory assembly line or it might mean something else – I dunno. It might indicate that particular crank journal is .0006 undersize – we’d refer that as being “six-tenths under.” Kind of confusing but bearings are referred to as being standard or undersize – like “.010 under” because it fits a “ten-under” crank. The bearing shell itself is in fact oversize but they are referred to as being “undersize” because they fit an undersize journal - crazy, huh? So, you have std, one-unders, sometimes two-unders, ten-unders, twenty-unders and thirty-unders.
I use bolts to position and then tighten the main caps – never thought to use a rubber mallet but guess that might work well too. Worth a try anyway since some have already used it.
Some unsolicited advice: When cleaning parts, use neoprene gloves and do it in a well-ventilated area. Most hydrocarbon solvents are skin absorbent –finger nails too –so use gloves to prevent that from happening. Think I paid less than five bucks at Harbor Freight for two hundred gloves – cheap investment. Personally, I use brake cleaner to remove the last bits of oils – again don’t breathe this stuff and keep skin contact to a minimum. Use the Super Tech store brand at Wallys – it’s inexpensive and works very well. Again, don’t breathe this crap – even if it is non-chlorinated.
Hey, this has turned into a very popular thread! LOL! Lots of great help here – keep asking if you have any more questions.
Jake -
When I plastigage main bearings, I put a piece if thin cardboard - like part of a sparkplug box or a bearing box - between two of the old bearings and the corresponding crank main journal. I have also used a few sheets of plain notebook paper. Snug the respective main caps and this will position the crankshaft tightly against the upper main bearing shells. It is totally useless to plastigage main bearing with the crank hanging down because the weight of the crank will result in the plastigage being distorted - flattened more than it should be. Just snug the main caps with the cardboard in there – do not tighten it too much or you might warp/fracture the cap – just snug it and you will be fine. Or, like others have said, you can use a bottle jack to do the same thing – but remember bottle jacks do in fact leak down a little and they also get in the way. I plastigage bearing only once - that gives me enough information and never had a problem by doing so. Also, do not rotate the crank when plastigaging - it will smear the plastigage and make it meaningless.
I have never seen a 0006 number on a bearing so not exactly sure what that means. These bearings might be selectively fitted at the factory assembly line or it might mean something else – I dunno. It might indicate that particular crank journal is .0006 undersize – we’d refer that as being “six-tenths under.” Kind of confusing but bearings are referred to as being standard or undersize – like “.010 under” because it fits a “ten-under” crank. The bearing shell itself is in fact oversize but they are referred to as being “undersize” because they fit an undersize journal - crazy, huh? So, you have std, one-unders, sometimes two-unders, ten-unders, twenty-unders and thirty-unders.
I use bolts to position and then tighten the main caps – never thought to use a rubber mallet but guess that might work well too. Worth a try anyway since some have already used it.
Some unsolicited advice: When cleaning parts, use neoprene gloves and do it in a well-ventilated area. Most hydrocarbon solvents are skin absorbent –finger nails too –so use gloves to prevent that from happening. Think I paid less than five bucks at Harbor Freight for two hundred gloves – cheap investment. Personally, I use brake cleaner to remove the last bits of oils – again don’t breathe this stuff and keep skin contact to a minimum. Use the Super Tech store brand at Wallys – it’s inexpensive and works very well. Again, don’t breathe this crap – even if it is non-chlorinated.
Hey, this has turned into a very popular thread! LOL! Lots of great help here – keep asking if you have any more questions.
Jake -
Gloves sound like a great idea. I'll get some for sure. I had a feeling that brake cleaner wasn't the most healthy stuff to handle but I didn't act on it.
I know, I never expected to get to 6 pages and counting! Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to give me advice!
I plastigaged - using red plastigage - my front main bearing (I heard this one wears fastest) and used a matchbook cover to shim the bearing behind it to hold up the crank, as instructed in a video Cudamax posted. I cleaned off both the journal and the bearing beforehand with brake cleaner.
I got a min. clearance of .002 and a max. clearance of .003.
Does this sound tight enough that just a HV pump and 50 weight oil would cut it? I'd like to reiterate - I don't want to take unnecessary risks but I plan to rebuild in a couple hundred, 1000 at max, miles and I'd like to cut costs.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas - usually winter in FL
At .002/.003 – you are nearing the upper wear limit but it’s what I would expect in an engine with over 100k on it. You will be ok with this but if they are available, I would go with “one-unders”. That would put you at .001/.002.
If you cannot find the one-unders then just use a std bearing set and you are going to be just fine, especially with a high volume pump.
If you cannot find the one-unders then just use a std bearing set and you are going to be just fine, especially with a high volume pump.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
At .002/.003 – you are nearing the upper wear limit but it’s what I would expect in an engine with over 100k on it. You will be ok with this but if they are available, I would go with “one-unders”. That would put you at .001/.002.
If you cannot find the one-unders then just use a std bearing set and you are going to be just fine, especially with a high volume pump.
If you cannot find the one-unders then just use a std bearing set and you are going to be just fine, especially with a high volume pump.
I know this sounds cheap, but I'd rather not buy new bearings just to replace them again when I rebuild the engine in 500 miles or so (I'll be stroking it; replacing the block, crank, bearings, etc). I know in a normal situation it would be best to replace the bearings, but in mine could I get away with leaving them if I drive it easy until I rebuild?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
Also, should I remove a rod bearing cap to check for wear there, or is that unnecessary? If that's something I should do, is there anything I need to know or do I just take out the bolts?
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas - usually winter in FL
You've already go the pan off - I'd replace the bearings and use a high volume pump. You will still be able to use the pump on your rebuild -so it is just the cost of bearings.
Rods are easy, just unscrew the nuts, wiggle the cap off and you're there. Install a new insert, torque things down and move onto the next one.
Button things up and drive it. You're going to be just fine.
Make sure your back-up is there to help out a little- -
Jake -
Rods are easy, just unscrew the nuts, wiggle the cap off and you're there. Install a new insert, torque things down and move onto the next one.
Button things up and drive it. You're going to be just fine.
Make sure your back-up is there to help out a little- -
Jake -
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
You've already go the pan off - I'd replace the bearings and use a high volume pump. You will still be able to use the pump on your rebuild -so it is just the cost of bearings.
Rods are easy, just unscrew the nuts, wiggle the cap off and you're there. Install a new insert, torque things down and move onto the next one.
Button things up and drive it. You're going to be just fine.
Make sure your back-up is there to help out a little- -
Jake -
Rods are easy, just unscrew the nuts, wiggle the cap off and you're there. Install a new insert, torque things down and move onto the next one.
Button things up and drive it. You're going to be just fine.
Make sure your back-up is there to help out a little- -
Jake -
I'd heard that a high volume oil pump is unnecessary in a new engine and slightly decreases power due to the higher parasitic drain on the engine. What are your thoughts on this?
Also, are rod bearings subject to being undersize like main bearings or are they all the same?
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas - usually winter in FL
Yeah, high volume pumps really are not necessary on a new engine. GM engineers are not stupid and they sized the oil pump accordingly. But, you have a high mileage engine and since you already have the pan off, just spring for the high volume pump.
Having said that, over the years I have installed at least fifty high volume pumps and experienced zero issues. All the high volume pump does is increase oil pressure at lower engine speeds - like at idle. They also get the pressure back to normal more quickly after starting. High volume oil pumps in themselves do not increase oil flow through the engine at higher engine speeds since the excess oil is merely dumped back into the oil pump inlet after the pressure limiting valve opens up.
Does one really need additional oil pressures at lower rpm - nah, not really. But, my next engine rebuild is going to get a high volume pump - guess I'm kind of **** about that, huh?? LOL! Besides, I like higher oil pressure at idle, especially in my truck when hauling a trailer and then stopping in a rest area with a hot engine.
Rod bearings are like mains in that availability is similar. They used to be available in one, two, ten, twenty and thirty unders. Not sure if the 001 and 002 are still around. The volume of engine rebuilds has dropped dramatically over the years so, not as many parts choices as there used to be.
Hey, install some new bearings - and a hi vol pump. Stop worrying -read the shop manual. No need to over analyze things. Then time to drive the thing.
As we used to say, "Time to stop all the engineering and just run the damn car!"
Jake -
Having said that, over the years I have installed at least fifty high volume pumps and experienced zero issues. All the high volume pump does is increase oil pressure at lower engine speeds - like at idle. They also get the pressure back to normal more quickly after starting. High volume oil pumps in themselves do not increase oil flow through the engine at higher engine speeds since the excess oil is merely dumped back into the oil pump inlet after the pressure limiting valve opens up.
Does one really need additional oil pressures at lower rpm - nah, not really. But, my next engine rebuild is going to get a high volume pump - guess I'm kind of **** about that, huh?? LOL! Besides, I like higher oil pressure at idle, especially in my truck when hauling a trailer and then stopping in a rest area with a hot engine.
Rod bearings are like mains in that availability is similar. They used to be available in one, two, ten, twenty and thirty unders. Not sure if the 001 and 002 are still around. The volume of engine rebuilds has dropped dramatically over the years so, not as many parts choices as there used to be.
Hey, install some new bearings - and a hi vol pump. Stop worrying -read the shop manual. No need to over analyze things. Then time to drive the thing.
As we used to say, "Time to stop all the engineering and just run the damn car!"
Jake -
Last edited by jake corvette; Aug 10, 2014 at 09:23 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 46
From: Lynchburg, VA
Yeah, high volume pumps really are not necessary on a new engine. GM engineers are not stupid and they sized the oil pump accordingly. But, you have a high mileage engine and since you already have the pan off, just spring for the high volume pump.
Having said that, over the years I have installed at least fifty high volume pumps and experienced zero issues. All the high volume pump does is increase oil pressure at lower engine speeds - like at idle. They also get the pressure back to normal more quickly after starting. High volume oil pumps in themselves do not increase oil flow through the engine at higher engine speeds since the excess oil is merely dumped back into the oil pump inlet after the pressure limiting valve opens up.
Does one really need additional oil pressures at lower rpm - nah, not really. But, my next engine rebuild is going to get a high volume pump - guess I'm kind of **** about that, huh?? LOL! Besides, I like higher oil pressure at idle, especially in my truck when hauling a trailer and then stopping in a rest area with a hot engine.
Rod bearings are like mains in that availability is similar. They used to be available in one, two, ten, twenty and thirty unders. Not sure if the 001 and 002 are still around. The volume of engine rebuilds has dropped dramatically over the years so, not as many parts choices as there used to be.
Hey, install some new bearings - and a hi vol pump. Stop worrying -read the shop manual. No need to over analyze things. Then time to drive the thing.
As we used to say, "Time to stop all the engineering and just run the damn car!"
Jake -
Having said that, over the years I have installed at least fifty high volume pumps and experienced zero issues. All the high volume pump does is increase oil pressure at lower engine speeds - like at idle. They also get the pressure back to normal more quickly after starting. High volume oil pumps in themselves do not increase oil flow through the engine at higher engine speeds since the excess oil is merely dumped back into the oil pump inlet after the pressure limiting valve opens up.
Does one really need additional oil pressures at lower rpm - nah, not really. But, my next engine rebuild is going to get a high volume pump - guess I'm kind of **** about that, huh?? LOL! Besides, I like higher oil pressure at idle, especially in my truck when hauling a trailer and then stopping in a rest area with a hot engine.
Rod bearings are like mains in that availability is similar. They used to be available in one, two, ten, twenty and thirty unders. Not sure if the 001 and 002 are still around. The volume of engine rebuilds has dropped dramatically over the years so, not as many parts choices as there used to be.
Hey, install some new bearings - and a hi vol pump. Stop worrying -read the shop manual. No need to over analyze things. Then time to drive the thing.
As we used to say, "Time to stop all the engineering and just run the damn car!"
Jake -
Now to figure out what bearings to buy. Do I need to pull all the bearings one at a time to figure out if they're undersized or will I be safe getting standard size? I figure even a standard size bearing will have more metal on it than a worn undersized, but I want to make sure.
Love the saying! That's something I, as a perfectionist, am going to have to put into practice as I do this project.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas - usually winter in FL
Buy a set of std bearings and the hi vol pump. Have the bearings on hand so you can replace them as you inspect them. Others will not be in agreement here but that's what I would do.
I have witnessed perhaps three crankshafts from the factory which had different undersized sized journals. That's one in about every twenty years so your crank is going to be standard size or it will have all the journals undersize the same amount.
Your are correct that a worn std bearing will have more clearance than a new standard one - that's why new bearings "tighten" up the engine. That's why I only plastigage the new inserts - really dont care much what the old clearance was. Of all the bearings I have plastigaged, have yet to find even one bearing out of spec - all of the ones still in sealed boxes anyway. Not totally unexpected because I always mic the cranks during the rebuild process. So, not really sure why I still even plastigage at all.
After you do a few lower ends you will be able to grab a rod end and wiggle it a little and then be able to guess quite accurately which rods are loose and which ones are still ok. Obviously not totally accurate but it will give you a pretty good feel as to what is going on. Others way smarter than I might want to chime in about this.
Anyway, working on Corvettes is way fun - -but driving them is even way more enjoyable. So, get the frogging thing buttoned up and go drive it. Pick up a chick or two - that's what Corvettes are made for - LOL! Well, one of the things.......
Jake -
I have witnessed perhaps three crankshafts from the factory which had different undersized sized journals. That's one in about every twenty years so your crank is going to be standard size or it will have all the journals undersize the same amount.
Your are correct that a worn std bearing will have more clearance than a new standard one - that's why new bearings "tighten" up the engine. That's why I only plastigage the new inserts - really dont care much what the old clearance was. Of all the bearings I have plastigaged, have yet to find even one bearing out of spec - all of the ones still in sealed boxes anyway. Not totally unexpected because I always mic the cranks during the rebuild process. So, not really sure why I still even plastigage at all.
After you do a few lower ends you will be able to grab a rod end and wiggle it a little and then be able to guess quite accurately which rods are loose and which ones are still ok. Obviously not totally accurate but it will give you a pretty good feel as to what is going on. Others way smarter than I might want to chime in about this.
Anyway, working on Corvettes is way fun - -but driving them is even way more enjoyable. So, get the frogging thing buttoned up and go drive it. Pick up a chick or two - that's what Corvettes are made for - LOL! Well, one of the things.......
Jake -
Last edited by jake corvette; Aug 10, 2014 at 10:22 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 178
Likes: 3
From: Pensacola FL
The bearings can only roll out of the block one way. The side of the bearing with the "Tang" has to come out of the block first. So push the bearings out from the smooth side, or the side with no tang.