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I agree with you. I think the TPIS are the best fitting Headers on the market for C4. If I did it again, I'd use TPIS again.
(actually if I did it again, I'd go Dual Turbos, and use a custom manifold that fit the turbos :-)
For 84-89, The TPIS is the only header that can be installed without welding, and interface to stock connector types.
That's a big plus for people who need to keep emmission stuff installed and functioning ongoing.
For example to replace a CAT. Easy bolt off Ypipe when need to remove the trans. Easy access to starter.
The extra part cost of TPIS (about $500 more) is worth every penny, for the average person.
The reason I said that some people can save with OBX, (a lower $500 parts cost) is that some people know how to weld, and have fabbing skills. They might actually enjoy the custom work. Its really about the price that someone puts on their time.
Regarding bolt/plug fitment. The issue is only with the two inner pipes on passenger side. 3rd back melts the wire. 2nd back limits access to fit socket over plug with wrench attached. Full size plug can still be used, it was just easier for me to use the Accel shorty plug. Regarding dimpling two pipes, the issue exists because the 1-3/4" dia pipe is wider than stock, and the stock nuts are type shaped like a washer is welded to the nut. The washer part rubs against the pipe, for two pipes. The easiest fix, is to use aftermarket thinner nuts, without the washer flanges, that people typically use for headers, for those two pipes.
Yeah, the Tpis headers are the best fitting or hooker from what I’ve heard. I would get those if they were close to the same but I’m not spending $800 on them. I think all you’d need with the phab ones are some spacers so the brackets are right and then weld a flange to the pipes of the exhaust because there’s already a flange on the phab headers. I will be letting everyone know how the shop says the install goes and I will get pictures when they come here.
Its really about the price that someone puts on their time.
Regarding bolt/plug fitment. The issue is only with the two inner pipes on passenger side. 3rd back melts the wire. 2nd back limits access to fit socket over plug with wrench attached. Full size plug can still be used, it was just easier for me to use the Accel shorty plug. Regarding dimpling two pipes, the issue exists because the 1-3/4" dia pipe is wider than stock, and the stock nuts are type shaped like a washer is welded to the nut. The washer part rubs against the pipe, for two pipes. The easiest fix, is to use aftermarket thinner nuts, without the washer flanges, that people typically use for headers, for those two pipes.
I guess that is what it boils down to. What is YOUR time worth, assuming you can do the job because you have mad welding skills and the equipment. I also don't think I found much more for the 90-91 years where I could assemble it myself or without too much work.
Interesting. I think that was done back 15 years ago so I might be fuzzy on some details since I had a mechanic do some of the work. I didn't want to install a motor all by my lonesome with a cherry picker in my garage so I hired him to do the motor install. Didn't want to risk the motor being lowered onto the headers so we had him put the motor in and start with the accessories on one side while I installed the other side. I suspect that the AFR heads I used had something to do with the fitment? Maybe?
"I suspect that the AFR heads I used had something to do with the fitment? Maybe?"
Or maybe, when the AFR heads were installed, the installer decided to use new proper fitting bolts/nuts?
Actually, I just relooked at headers, and I need to correct my comments..
The burned boot issue was because the Accel wire sets I used originally provided 1 straight boot for the 3rd pass side plug, while all other 7 were angled.
That was correct for stock manifold, not for headers. Eventually, I corrected the problem by switching to an Angled boot on plug3 also, and that fit nicely.
Also, the tight plug clearance was that same plug 3, the 2nd back plug clearance was fine.
Id also argue the clearance to that plug is pretty tight with the stock manifold also.
Or maybe, when the AFR heads were installed, the installer decided to use new proper fitting bolts/nuts?
Actually, I just relooked at headers, and I need to correct my comments..
The burned boot issue was because the Accel wire sets I used originally provided 1 straight boot for the 3rd pass side plug, while all other 7 were angled.
That was correct for stock manifold, not for headers. Eventually, I corrected the problem by switching to an Angled boot on plug3 also, and that fit nicely.
Also, the tight plug clearance was that same plug 3, the 2nd back plug clearance was fine.
Id also argue the clearance to that plug is pretty tight with the stock manifold also.
I thought I used stock sized bolts from ARP? Been a while so I can't remember. I thought I either used stock or stock sized since I didn't recall cursing and swearing while running up and down to the hardware store.
I see, I used all 90 degree boots from MSD that were "universal" so everything was cut to length. Ran it along the valve cover bolts with retainers to keep them in place. This is with centerbolt VC.
I thought I used stock sized bolts from ARP? Been a while so I can't remember. I thought I either used stock or stock sized since I didn't recall cursing and swearing while running up and down to the hardware store.
I see, I used all 90 degree boots from MSD that were "universal" so everything was cut to length. Ran it along the valve cover bolts with retainers to keep them in place. This is with centerbolt VC.
There is something goofy about the flanges on AFR heads. My AFR 210s didn't line up to a few different sets of headers (including SLP) without working the bolt holes a little. The ports are raised, but the actual bolt spacing is a little goofy.
The same headers bolted up to Vortec heads I had in the shop no issue. Go figure.
I've never run TPIS headers or actually had a set in my possession. Are they stainless like the SLP headers were?
There is something goofy about the flanges on AFR heads. My AFR 210s didn't line up to a few different sets of headers (including SLP) without working the bolt holes a little. The ports are raised, but the actual bolt spacing is a little goofy.
The same headers bolted up to Vortec heads I had in the shop no issue. Go figure.
I've never run TPIS headers or actually had a set in my possession. Are they stainless like the SLP headers were?
-- Joe
I had AFR 190 so not sure why the 210 doesn't fit. Maybe someone screwed up? They fit the Accel Tri-Y headers in my F-body and definitely the C4 ones. I had Tri-Y and some cheap crap (Hooker maybe?) in my F-body. It fits my motor trashing TFS heads and now the AFR 190 heads.
I am not sure of the material but it was ceramic coated or something that was supposed to be more heat resistant. Supposedly it would contain more of the heat in the tubes. My only specifications were as follows:
1. Performance
2. Durability
3. Easy to install and work around
It isn't shiny at all so probably not it has to look good.
Here’s the pictures of the headers, I think they look good and they are 304 stainless like they said because I checked with a magnet and they aren’t magnetic except for bends where heat gets to them. They have 3/8” flange too by the way.
Here’s the pictures of the headers, I think they look good and they are 304 stainless like they said because I checked with a magnet and they aren’t magnetic except for bends where heat gets to them. They have 3/8” flange too by the way.
Wow. You are going to hate life when it comes time to change plugs I think.
my old vs new. Them Primary location looks like it will be tough to get to plugs. But if they fit good and you like them all good.
I never thought about that, they do look like they could be close, but I’ll see about that after they’re installed. But I looked at some obx headers and the bends look identical to those, I think these phab headers are exact copies of obx. I don’t know how people’s spark plug clearance with the obx is though.
On my OBX headers I could manage all plugs from above except for #8, which I could get from underneath just fine. They're close but not near impossible or anything I'd call tomorrow's headache. They will be close so something like these could be considered if you don't wrap them.
On my race car, the previous owner put on heddman, and GM 034 heads with angled plugs.
To fit requires use of shorty plugs, I use accel.
He also had Tally cables with right angle boots, that were very streamlined for clearance.
2 of the plugs were hard to get to, and 2 of them impossible to get to, with a standard socket wrench.
The key was having the right tool.
I used a racheted wrench, and type of sparkplug socket that has a Nut on the end. That way after socket was put over plug, the wrench would fit in the 1/4" clearance to grab socket.
What I learned was that they make shorter depth sparkplug sockets w/ nut, for shorty plugs. Using that one made access much easier.
There was still one trouble some plug. I could partially get to it with a streamed lined open end wrench, if I didn't mind stripping away at the nut.
What I did is took a shorty spark plug socket w/ nut, and cut a slot in the side, like an oxygen sensor socket, and that did the trick, to let me get the socket slid over the plug.
On my race car, the previous owner put on heddman, and GM 034 heads with angled plugs.
To fit requires use of shorty plugs, I use accel.
He also had Tally cables with right angle boots, that were very streamlined for clearance.
2 of the plugs were hard to get to, and 2 of them impossible to get to, with a standard socket wrench.
The key was having the right tool.
I used a racheted wrench, and type of sparkplug socket that has a Nut on the end. That way after socket was put over plug, the wrench would fit in the 1/4" clearance to grab socket.
What I learned was that they make shorter depth sparkplug sockets w/ nut, for shorty plugs. Using that one made access much easier.
There was still one trouble some plug. I could partially get to it with a streamed lined open end wrench, if I didn't mind stripping away at the nut.
What I did is took a shorty spark plug socket w/ nut, and cut a slot in the side, like an oxygen sensor socket, and that did the trick, to let me get the socket slid over the plug
I'm so glad mine fit without all those tricks like short plugs, etc. For a race car, it might make some sense. I have normal sized plugs with straight plugs. It takes me a couple of hours to change the plugs and that includes the time to run down to the parts store 5 mins down the road with some screwing around at the shop
Something I have been curious about. People often say "X is a copy of Y". How much can I copy before it becomes an issue? I assume AFR spends R&D time and would not appreciate me buying the set of heads when it comes out and making a bunch for sale. Since I spent no time in R&D, I would be able to sell it cheaper. Sure, if I did it privately, no problem. I would imagine that if I make a commercial venture of it, they might send a lawyer knocking on my door. Or is it the wild west where anything goes?
