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I don't have access to my records… probably, it’s whatever kit was specifically made for the AFR 210/220 heads, they have special spacing of the attach bolts (rocker studs) so a generic set doesn't fit.
I’m not the one to tell you what is near the limit, go with whatever the rocker arms you're using, and what limits the manufacturer has. If they dont have the data, obviously you dont want to use them. Perhaps call Jesel and ask their opinion on when you should need the Sportsman series… you might be just fine as this is low to mid level competition grade stuff but when the lift goes above .600 and/or duration above 240@.050 and/or RPM above 7K, we certainly have to be mindful of valve train stability/durability and pick the proper components. Unless you want to do R&D and have access to a spintron, you start playing Russian Roulette. Lots of dirt trackers and circle trackers run SBC’s at higher RPM and understand the limits with a lot of broken pieces to prove it, I’m not one of them but I certainly pay attention.
yeah this Jesel kit is spec for afr210 heads.
the more i think about it, if i was building a high-winding 8000 rpm huge head naturally aspirated circle track motor, the shaft mounts would be the way to go.
except boost is my gimmick, and a boost motor (lower compression) is gonna be a turd down low if a big enough pulley is put onto it to make sure its not over its max impeller rpm at 8000 rpm.
so i need to pulley it for a 7200 rpm redline and have it achieving 95% of its max impeller redline by then - so that its not a turd down low since its a centrifugal style blower
and if 7200 rpm, in quick bursts on the street, or dragstrip, is the max im gonna go, the need for shaft mounts becomes less important
(wish i could do turbo, just cant fab it myself nor do i trust speedshops to ‘get to my build’ before summer)
looks like the engine had more miles on it than orig thought.
pistons mic’d at 4.0235” and the bore measured 4.034” at its widest point.
fhe pistons also had signs of some scuffing on the skirt indicating movement in their bores.
the JE pistons dish sizing was a whopping 28cc - too deep , too low a CR for my goals, esp on e85
they said i could get them ‘coated’ and prob throw them back in the bore, but i might as well get it done right.
which means bored .040 “ (no, im not worried about that being too much, for my high HP goals)
have lifter bores turned into .904
and buy +.040 forged pistons with dishing in the range of 17-21 cc , hoping that they make such a dishing.
Pistons take 6 wks to order, so this slowed down my timetable unfortunately
my plan is for a SCR around 10.0 :1 for e85 with a .039 felpro 1074 gasket, 0 deck and 60cc afr 210 heads
should ‘politics’ or whatever change and pump e85 become no longer avail 5 yrs from now or whatever, i can swap to a thicker head gasket and bigger cc heads if its detonating
The cylinder bore is the real problem. Way too much clearance. If the borevwas fixable with a few thou hine job, coating the pistons would be acceptable if they used Line 2 Line coatings skirt build up coating... but again your not going to fix a used bore already worn to 4.034 in some areas.
Boring to 4.040 and new pistons is the best course of action.
What length rod? I could possibly point you to where the correct piston are in-stock. stock.
Will
The cylinder bore is the real problem. Way too much clearance. If the borevwas fixable with a few thou hine job, coating the pistons would be acceptable if they used Line 2 Line coatings skirt build up coating... but again your not going to fix a used bore already worn to 4.034 in some areas.
Boring to 4.040 and new pistons is the best course of action.
What length rod? I could possibly point you to where the correct piston are in-stock. stock.
Will
6” oliver rods
today i ordered JE 361109 pistons, they had 1 set in stock and i should receive them tmrrw.
they are .040” over
16cc dishing, i upgraded to .200” wall thickness wrist pins. Same height. 2618 alloy which im hoping is ok for street (i care about oil consumption, cold knock is ok)
also this gives me chance to do the .904 lifter bore upgrade . Machine shop told me thats +$550. , not cheap but hopefully worth it for my street solid roller.
Alot depends on type of rings but I personally would be at .024 top and. 026 second range..... with a ductile or steel 1/16" to .043 compression ring. Looser with regular cast moly fill ring (which I wouldn't recommend for your application).
Being a bit looser at .028 top and. 030 second won't hurt anything depending on the type of ring. Your machinist is concerned about double power adders and that's why he's recommended that much end gap...
FYI 28/30... that's the end gaps in the 4.185 bore heavy nitrous engine in my 84 with tool steel rings and I have leaned it out and got caught over timed enough to expand the pistons enough that the crown/head land of the pistons actually drug the cyl wall and it didn't butt the rings.
Will
Originally Posted by dizwiz24
What top ring gap would you use?
engine builder mentioned .028
but i called up JE pistons tech support and they said thats way too much.
they recommend .005 * bore inches(4.040) for street boost build. I think that works out to .02022, but rhey say .0210 top ring gap would
be good
mostly a street car, with some drag runs (20 psi boost + 75 shot nitrous)
Should I half-fill the block? WIth my current 160 t-stat and fan setup, my temps run cool. 170-174F is typical.
Or will that just give me over-heating worries?
Note I may go to an aftermarket, narrower radiator to give me some room for a 4" inlet pipe to my F1-A94.
Though these aftermarket radiators are prob thicker or cool better than the stock one does.
I dont run A/C or the condenser in there.
My problem with this mod is once I do it, I cant go back.
That said, Id like to be able to throw a 100 shot of nitrous, on top of the boost, if I need to. To push HP to 1000 at times
-had the block bored .040 bc piston walls were at .035 due to wear.
-went with lessor dished JE 361109 pistons bc the other ones had scuffing on the skirts.
Existing pistons could be coated and re-used though (i put them up for sale for $150)
-the .040 361109 JE pistons i got were built wrong and didnt match the specs on the box.
Top ring groove was only 1.0 (vs. 1.2)
second ring groove was only 1.2 (vs. 1.5)
so the rings that came with it didnt fit.
JE pistons did right and put in a new production for these pistons I needed and had me a new set made within a week and a half since they were out of stock of 361109 part and didnt have any plans for a new production run in the next 60 days
-contemplated a partial block fill due to my HP goals, but builder talked me out of it since I use it on the street
-bought Jesel 1.6:1 shaft rockers to go onto the afr210 comp elim heads (60cc)
- bought a new lt4 extreme duty timing chain. Noted that this chain is incredibly tough. Its not just a baseline chintzy, entry-level single roller chain. Its a heavy thick single chain
-planning on MLS cometic head gaskets
-planning on (expensive) jones lifter with wheel roller .842 lifter. I considered .904, but the builder made it clear that the extra work would delay the build and that he has good luck with modern ‘wheeled’ .842 solid lifters even with heavy street usage. He would have had to
use another machine shop for that step (to be at mercy of their schedule) and would
cost me an extra $650 to machine out to .904
-installed steel halfshafts with tough cold forged solid body u joints
-worried the mcleod street twin clutch will be my weakest link bc it comes with organic discs. Aaron at AKS racing confirmed this clutch can slip at 870 rwhp on a dyno pull.
Spoke with Fred at Mcleod and he said they made sure never to sell it with ceramic discs bc the pull type aluminum pressure plate has been known to fail with super high HP. They had an issue with a guy spraying nitrous on a Mcleod street twin. Then, once Valeo pull type pressure plates started getting made in korea, with questionable quality, they decided to get out of offering it for our cars/trans anymore.
he told me the key is finding a push type to work, which will open the door to modern clutch assemblies
AFR is tellng me i need 4.125” mininum ( pocketed) bore head gaskets for their afr 210
comp elim heads
cometic mls makes only up to 4.100” (pocketed) bore width
Trusty fel pro 1074’s are 4.125 but not cometics.
Do i chance it with mls cometics at 4.100” bore width?
or chance it by not having mls cometic (for my power goals) and use the fel-pro 1074’s that
DO come in 4.125”. I also have 1074’s sitting on my shelf whereas MLS cometic is at least 1-2 wks out
Top of gasket is exposed. Even a little bit with 4.125. I have a 4.125 bore block and AFR210 heads, and consider this a negative aspect of the heads.
Originally Posted by dizwiz24
Blah.
AFR is tellng me i need 4.125” mininum ( pocketed) bore head gaskets for their afr 210
comp elim heads
cometic mls makes only up to 4.100” (pocketed) bore width
Trusty fel pro 1074’s are 4.125 but not cometics.
Do i chance it with mls cometics at 4.100” bore width?
or chance it by not having mls cometic (for my power goals) and use the fel-pro 1074’s that
DO come in 4.125”. I also have 1074’s sitting on my shelf whereas MLS cometic is at least 1-2 wks out
I'm not sure what they are talking about.... I have used 4.100 bore gaskets with a bunch of AFR 210 headed LTX builds. Even used the Cometic gaskets on 93ragtops build few years ago. Unless they changed the chamber design you'll be fine.
You will regret copper gaskets on a street car with a water block and heads..... Wait for Cometic.
Will
Last edited by rklessdriver; 03-14-2024 at 08:12 PM.
I have 4.125 size with valve pockets Cometic gaskets with 210 AFR heads (383 boosted with D1). The part number is H2430SP10xxS. The xx is the thickness 50, 70, or whatever.
Anything smaller will be exposed in the cylinder increasing the compression ratio. My 1st engine had the wrong size and it had burn marks on it. That engine blew up from that and other issues .
I have newish AFR 195 65cc competition heads (1095-716) and Fel pro 1094 gasket (4.100" bore) is too small for them, so I guess AFR 210 comp heads need bigger bore gaskets as well.
I have 4.125 size with valve pockets Cometic gaskets with 210 AFR heads (383 boosted with D1). The part number is H2430SP10xxS. The xx is the thickness 50, 70, or whatever.
Anything smaller will be exposed in the cylinder increasing the compression ratio. My 1st engine had the wrong size and it had burn marks on it. That engine blew up from that and other issues .
I would love to rebuild my 396, get rid of the low tension oil rings. Oil consumption is stupid.. But can you bore an LT1 block safely up to 60 over? Or would 40 over with custom pistons be the way to go?
Sorry for hijacking, but it seems relevant to an extent to the engine build.
AFR Instructions for 195cc and 210cc heads indicate:
HEAD GASKETS: Fel Pro #1003 for all aluminum heads up to 4.100”
bore. Fel Pro #1034 should be used for 4.100” or larger bore. Applications requiring steam holes should use Fel Pro #1014. Gen 2 92-97 LT1/LT4 reverse cool applications use GM gaskets or Fel-Pro #1074. AFR has removed the cooling passage between cylinders #1 & #3 and #5 & #7 to increase strength of the casting. Do not drill these areas out in an attempt to find water jacketing
01-01-2024, 06:46 PM
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