Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem???
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,292
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From: Beavercreek OR
Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem???
I've got a problem with the Crane Cam self aligning RR's. I got a couple different stories going here. One says "I use self aligning RR's and guide plates" perhaps your guide plates are not aligned properly.
The other says "You can't run giude plates and self aligning RR's together) They fight each other.
The photo's are of the RR's as they arrived on my engine. They are the only parts that are not new on the rebuild with the exception of the 219 cam. I have not been able to determine if they looked like this prior to the instalation on these heads or not.
There is no evidence that the unusual wear is continuing as the engine has been fired several times for periods of one to two minutes or so.
Thanks again sumore Rich :cool: You Rock!
[img]ftp://ftp.forus.com/forus/moonunit/Corvette/VetteRebuild/ValveCovers/BadRockers059.jpg[/img]
The other says "You can't run giude plates and self aligning RR's together) They fight each other.
The photo's are of the RR's as they arrived on my engine. They are the only parts that are not new on the rebuild with the exception of the 219 cam. I have not been able to determine if they looked like this prior to the instalation on these heads or not.
There is no evidence that the unusual wear is continuing as the engine has been fired several times for periods of one to two minutes or so.
Thanks again sumore Rich :cool: You Rock!
[img]ftp://ftp.forus.com/forus/moonunit/Corvette/VetteRebuild/ValveCovers/BadRockers059.jpg[/img]
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 90,675
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From: SE NY
Cruise-In II Veteran
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (86Moon)
You should NEVER use both types of alignment on the same rockers; use either self aligning or non self aligning with hardened guides & push rods.
Two different forms of alignment might not be in conflict but there is a good chance that they would be. The result would be excessive wear and possibly binding in the valve train.
Does the engine now have both forms of alignment and if so do the push rods & guides show wear too?
Two different forms of alignment might not be in conflict but there is a good chance that they would be. The result would be excessive wear and possibly binding in the valve train.
Does the engine now have both forms of alignment and if so do the push rods & guides show wear too?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 944
Likes: 0
From: Mesa Az
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (65Z01)
:lurk: hmph. didn't know that.
question: Comp Cams Pro Magnums, are they self aligning or non-self aligning?
question: Comp Cams Pro Magnums, are they self aligning or non-self aligning?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,596
Likes: 19
From: Portland Oregon
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (mistaben)
You can buy Comps, Cranes, or Crower in either self aligning or standard. Either way, NEVER use self aligning rockers with guide plates OR use standard rockers without guide plates and hardened push rods. If you use self aligning rockers and have to remove the guide plates, be sure to install a washer equal in thickness to the guide plates that was removed from under the studs.
[Modified by tjwong, 11:48 PM 12/21/2003]
[Modified by tjwong, 11:48 PM 12/21/2003]
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,148
Likes: 1
From: Chandler AZ
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (mistaben)
Take a look at the valve end of the rocker; self-aligning will have washer looking things (or maybe rails) to fix the rocker so it cannot move side-to-side on the valve tip. Non-self-aligning will move freely across the valve tip; they depend on pushrods + guideplates to locate them.
And NEVER use self-aligning with guideplates! You will break stuff!
[Modified by gcrouse, 1:02 AM 12/22/2003]
And NEVER use self-aligning with guideplates! You will break stuff!
[Modified by gcrouse, 1:02 AM 12/22/2003]
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 810
Likes: 4
From: Austria
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (gcrouse)
i use magnum roller tip rocker, self aligning and the factory installed guideplates...
i have to say, i checked clearances and the pushrod never contact the guideplate when i moved the rocker arm towards each end of possible travel
always had a gap between the pushrods and " guideplates", i dont think they will really much do...
i have to say, i checked clearances and the pushrod never contact the guideplate when i moved the rocker arm towards each end of possible travel
always had a gap between the pushrods and " guideplates", i dont think they will really much do...
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (corvette90)
.....and the factory installed guideplates...
i have to say, i checked clearances and the pushrod never contact the guideplate ...
i have to say, i checked clearances and the pushrod never contact the guideplate ...
Don't EVER use self-alignging and also guidplates. One OR the other!
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 48
From: Lakeport CA
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (86Moon)
only one of your pics loaded for me but that looks like wear against either the adjuster nut or the valve cover?!? You should be able to identify where that wear is on the corrosponding part. I would start there.
[Modified by Trog, 1:44 PM 12/22/2003]
[Modified by Trog, 1:44 PM 12/22/2003]
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,292
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From: Beavercreek OR
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (65Z01)
Thanks for the info everyone. I would say it's pretty conclusive.
65Z01, yes there are both on the motor. I bought this motor from a forum member and it has about 10,000 mi on it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=622923
The AFR195's have about 4,000 mi. The photo's above show wear that is present on all the rockers. The guidplates are AFR. I would guess that they are hardened, but I will call them to make sure. They show no indication of wear.
The oil pressure is 80 lbs. on start up, so it doesn't appear that there has been serious damage to the oil pump. My plan at this point is to buy new non self aligning Comp Cam Promags install them and procede. Does this sound appropriate?
[Modified by 86Moon, 9:41 AM 12/22/2003]
65Z01, yes there are both on the motor. I bought this motor from a forum member and it has about 10,000 mi on it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=622923
The AFR195's have about 4,000 mi. The photo's above show wear that is present on all the rockers. The guidplates are AFR. I would guess that they are hardened, but I will call them to make sure. They show no indication of wear.
The oil pressure is 80 lbs. on start up, so it doesn't appear that there has been serious damage to the oil pump. My plan at this point is to buy new non self aligning Comp Cam Promags install them and procede. Does this sound appropriate?
[Modified by 86Moon, 9:41 AM 12/22/2003]
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (86Moon)
My plan at this point is to buy new non self aligning Comp Cam Promags install them and procede. Does this sound appropriate?
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 48
From: Lakeport CA
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (scorp508)
Is it just me or does that last pic make it look like the pushrods are way too short & the rocker is hitting the adjuster nut when the valve is closed?
Also by the way the adjuster lock is almost to the top of the nut?? Mine are about 1/2 way down into the nut...
Here is mine from the side.
[Modified by Trog, 1:54 PM 12/22/2003]
Also by the way the adjuster lock is almost to the top of the nut?? Mine are about 1/2 way down into the nut...
Here is mine from the side.
[Modified by Trog, 1:54 PM 12/22/2003]
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 90,675
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From: SE NY
Cruise-In II Veteran
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (Trog)
I have to agree that the wear is from the poly lock but I don't see how it could effect the rocker. With my ProMagnums the poly lock cannot get low enough to wear the rocker unless the rocker below the poly lock wears away.
In any case it sounds like a good idea to go to the ProMagnums. You need to verify that those guide plates & push rods are indeed hardened. Take the part number from them. If they are hardened it's a good bet that the push rods also are.
You should also verify that push rod length is correct. Slowly rotate the engine while watching were the roller reverses at each side of the valve top. The roller travel should be centered across the valve tip with equal margains at each reversal point.
In any case it sounds like a good idea to go to the ProMagnums. You need to verify that those guide plates & push rods are indeed hardened. Take the part number from them. If they are hardened it's a good bet that the push rods also are.
You should also verify that push rod length is correct. Slowly rotate the engine while watching were the roller reverses at each side of the valve top. The roller travel should be centered across the valve tip with equal margains at each reversal point.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque NM
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (mistaben)
It depends did you buy self aligning or non-self aligning? i.e. they come in both
:lurk: hmph. didn't know that.
question: Comp Cams Pro Magnums, are they self aligning or non-self aligning?
question: Comp Cams Pro Magnums, are they self aligning or non-self aligning?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque NM
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (scorp508)
just get 16 hardened washers from pep boys/lowes and use those to replace the guide plate $5 option...or...$$$
My plan at this point is to buy new non self aligning Comp Cam Promags install them and procede. Does this sound appropriate?
:yesnod:
:yesnod:
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,292
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From: Beavercreek OR
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (Corvette0096)
Didn't happen Rich :nonod: I had to stop procrastinating something today, and had to take care of Christmas stuff. Something had to give, and as you know there was a timely traffic problem on 205. Then, apposing forces were in my driveway when I got home. OMG, TMI. I'll talk to you tomorrow. I also have new info from Brendan who I got the motor from :thumbs:
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,012
Likes: 1
From: Bowie MD
Re: Rocker Roller Problem! Guide Plates and Self Aligning RR's ??????? Problem??? (86Moon)
Now y'all have got me worried or maybe not really in trouble yet. I have the stock D113 heads with the stock alignment guide plates. I recently purchased Comp Cams Promag RR's 1.6 3/8 size. #1302-16 . I am lookin for where it says self aligning??? The roller tip where the valve would hit is a straight bar surface. therefore I beleive from your posts that I have non-self aligning. I can see on the stock rockers that there is recessed spot where the valve top is kept in place. So, should I remove the guide plates and replace with washers, or as Scorp says, they dont really align nothing, so it is safe.??? HELP
chris
chris