M6 vs A4 question
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Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Navarre Florida
M6 vs A4 question
I'll be trading my01 z51 a4 vert for a targa top 2004 m6. I have heard that manual puts down a little more to the wheel is that correct? How much more? The car I'm looking at has 19000 miles vs my vert z51 with 105000 miles. What difference in hp and torque due to low mileage vs high mileage? Also I heard that all FRC came with z51 but not all targa tops have it. Is there any difference in gear ratio/ acceleration between m6 and m6z51?
Thanks
Thanks
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The LS1 after 2002 with the manual was rated at 350hp/375tq. The LS1 with the auto was rated at 350hp/350tq.
There is no difference in hp/tq ratings with the Z51 suspension package.
It's true the 1999/2000 FRC had Z51 as standard equipment, but that model became the Z06 in 2001 which had the FE4 suspension as standard.
Rear differential gear ratio was 3.42 for all manual transmission cars, including the Z06. The Z06 transmission known as the MN12 had more closely spaced 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear ratios as compared to the MN6 available in the coupe and the convertibles.
There is no difference in hp/tq ratings with the Z51 suspension package.
It's true the 1999/2000 FRC had Z51 as standard equipment, but that model became the Z06 in 2001 which had the FE4 suspension as standard.
Rear differential gear ratio was 3.42 for all manual transmission cars, including the Z06. The Z06 transmission known as the MN12 had more closely spaced 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear ratios as compared to the MN6 available in the coupe and the convertibles.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
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From: Dublin GA
The 6 speed has LESS parasitic loss, so it will register higher #s on the dyno. It also comes with a 3.42 rear, verses a 2.73 or 3.15 in the auto. Both stock, the M6 is faster, but install the 3.42s and a TC in the auto, and the A4 will eat the M6's lunch 
The Z51 was just an option, so it probably appears equally on the couple and frc, but not really sure. The suspension is stiffer on the Z51, so it may be a little faster accelerating, but once again, upgrades are available to make a Non Z51 just as quick.
The Z51 was just an option, so it probably appears equally on the couple and frc, but not really sure. The suspension is stiffer on the Z51, so it may be a little faster accelerating, but once again, upgrades are available to make a Non Z51 just as quick.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Palm Harbor not far from Sebring Florida
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Oldtimer
The LS1 after 2002 with the manual was rated at 350hp/375tq. The LS1 with the auto was rated at 350hp/350tq.
There is no difference in hp/tq ratings with the Z51 suspension package.
It's true the 1999/2000 FRC had Z51 as standard equipment, but that model became the Z06 in 2001 which had the FE4 suspension as standard.
Rear differential gear ratio was 3.42 for all manual transmission cars, including the Z06. The Z06 transmission known as the MN12 had more closely spaced 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear ratios as compared to the MN6 available in the coupe and the convertibles.
There is no difference in hp/tq ratings with the Z51 suspension package.
It's true the 1999/2000 FRC had Z51 as standard equipment, but that model became the Z06 in 2001 which had the FE4 suspension as standard.
Rear differential gear ratio was 3.42 for all manual transmission cars, including the Z06. The Z06 transmission known as the MN12 had more closely spaced 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear ratios as compared to the MN6 available in the coupe and the convertibles.
The 6 speed has LESS parasitic loss, so it will register higher #s on the dyno. It also comes with a 3.42 rear, verses a 2.73 or 3.15 in the auto. Both stock, the M6 is faster, but install the 3.42s and a TC in the auto, and the A4 will eat the M6's lunch
The Z51 was just an option, so it probably appears equally on the couple and frc, but not really sure. The suspension is stiffer on the Z51, so it may be a little faster accelerating, but once again, upgrades are available to make a Non Z51 just as quick.
The Z51 was just an option, so it probably appears equally on the couple and frc, but not really sure. The suspension is stiffer on the Z51, so it may be a little faster accelerating, but once again, upgrades are available to make a Non Z51 just as quick.
with what they said.
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Typically the 6-speed car has about a 15% loss of HP between the crank and the rear end. The A4 loses about 18% or so. Plus the 6-speed has the 3.42 gearing compared to either the 2.73 (standard) or 3.15 (performance axle).
Pro
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 721
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From: Fla
m6 vs a4
a4 easier on engine due to no over revving, with 3.42 gears it is a beast. never a missed shift and no expensive clutches and other parts to replace. the a4's are durable unless you are unleashing 500+ hp then you will have to upgrade some parts. I see most drivers lose drag races missing shifts.. bumping rev limiter etc... autos never make mistakes and usually win. fyi.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2005
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From: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Though I prefer the manual shifting of my current C5 Z06, when I drag raced my previous C5 with A4, the repeatable consistency was unbeatable. The whole time I had the auto I wished I had a manual, except of course when stuck in typical NJ traffic.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
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From: Los Angeles California
You know that horse we always drag out for the "difference between..." threads? Here... Let me drag it out for ya'all to beat.
In the mean time... For those that talk about either transmission being faster than the other, the word "faster" is relative to the type of racing you're doing. Nobody will argue that the A4 is a better transmission for drag racing (especially bracket racing). And HOPEFULLY nobody will argue that the M6 is better for road racing and auto-x.
Answering the OP's question, the manual has less loss, and therefore will show more power to the ground on a dyno. But the difference in power is some-what negligible depending on your future mods and the purpose of your car. Some will tell you that the M6 is about 15% loss. To be honest, I believe it's closer to 13%. The A4s definitely have an 18-20% loss at the wheels.
It sounds to me that you're expecting a significant difference in the feel between the A4 and M6. I'll promise you now that there is a completely different feeling. However, if you're feeling more power, it's likely a placebo effect. The feeling of 10RWHP is hard to notice. But you'll definitely feel that you're in the power band better and the raw feeling of the manual is a lot more exciting (IMHO).
In the mean time... For those that talk about either transmission being faster than the other, the word "faster" is relative to the type of racing you're doing. Nobody will argue that the A4 is a better transmission for drag racing (especially bracket racing). And HOPEFULLY nobody will argue that the M6 is better for road racing and auto-x.
Answering the OP's question, the manual has less loss, and therefore will show more power to the ground on a dyno. But the difference in power is some-what negligible depending on your future mods and the purpose of your car. Some will tell you that the M6 is about 15% loss. To be honest, I believe it's closer to 13%. The A4s definitely have an 18-20% loss at the wheels.
It sounds to me that you're expecting a significant difference in the feel between the A4 and M6. I'll promise you now that there is a completely different feeling. However, if you're feeling more power, it's likely a placebo effect. The feeling of 10RWHP is hard to notice. But you'll definitely feel that you're in the power band better and the raw feeling of the manual is a lot more exciting (IMHO).
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 931
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From: Rowlett, Texas
Just to clarify, the tranny in the Z06 is a wide-ratio unit in the 1st 4 gears, the std 6-speed is a closer-ratio unit. The Z06 has a 2.97 1st gear, which gives it more dig from a start, but the gaps between the gears are wider, up to the 1.0 4th gear.
DG
DG
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2010
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From: cold & windy
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,809
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From: Yorktown Virginia
You know that horse we always drag out for the "difference between..." threads? Here... Let me drag it out for ya'all to beat.
In the mean time... For those that talk about either transmission being faster than the other, the word "faster" is relative to the type of racing you're doing. Nobody will argue that the A4 is a better transmission for drag racing (especially bracket racing). And HOPEFULLY nobody will argue that the M6 is better for road racing and auto-x.
Answering the OP's question, the manual has less loss, and therefore will show more power to the ground on a dyno. But the difference in power is some-what negligible depending on your future mods and the purpose of your car. Some will tell you that the M6 is about 15% loss. To be honest, I believe it's closer to 13%. The A4s definitely have an 18-20% loss at the wheels.
It sounds to me that you're expecting a significant difference in the feel between the A4 and M6. I'll promise you now that there is a completely different feeling. However, if you're feeling more power, it's likely a placebo effect. The feeling of 10RWHP is hard to notice. But you'll definitely feel that you're in the power band better and the raw feeling of the manual is a lot more exciting (IMHO).
In the mean time... For those that talk about either transmission being faster than the other, the word "faster" is relative to the type of racing you're doing. Nobody will argue that the A4 is a better transmission for drag racing (especially bracket racing). And HOPEFULLY nobody will argue that the M6 is better for road racing and auto-x.
Answering the OP's question, the manual has less loss, and therefore will show more power to the ground on a dyno. But the difference in power is some-what negligible depending on your future mods and the purpose of your car. Some will tell you that the M6 is about 15% loss. To be honest, I believe it's closer to 13%. The A4s definitely have an 18-20% loss at the wheels.
It sounds to me that you're expecting a significant difference in the feel between the A4 and M6. I'll promise you now that there is a completely different feeling. However, if you're feeling more power, it's likely a placebo effect. The feeling of 10RWHP is hard to notice. But you'll definitely feel that you're in the power band better and the raw feeling of the manual is a lot more exciting (IMHO).
A few more things on the manual though, it will feel much faster because of the gear ratio and you are locked to the motor by the clutch whereas with an auto it is almost continuously slipping compared to the motor. So with the manual you will feel the power in every gear because there is no lag from the time the motor revs up to the time you start to accelerate. I think that the auto feels kind of lazy when just driving it normally where that manual feels more like a sports car with its raw power.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
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From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
LS1 with auto just under 300 rwhp
350 x 15% loss = ~ 297 rwhp
LS1 with auto just over 300 rwhp
350 x 12% Loss with manual ~308 rwhp.
these numbers may be close WHEN NEW
the manual will accelerate quicker then the auto
350 x 15% loss = ~ 297 rwhp
LS1 with auto just over 300 rwhp
350 x 12% Loss with manual ~308 rwhp.
these numbers may be close WHEN NEW
the manual will accelerate quicker then the auto
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,682
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From: Coatesville PA
Wow. Just sat down and did the numbers and your right. So while being better for acceleration in every gear(long as you have the rpms to support it) why is it it is always declared a close ratio version? I'm pretty sure I've even seen GM material that calls It that.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 584
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From: Gilroy Ca.
Not many of us are full time racers. I bought a Covette for the fun factor. It is my first Covette (not new) and my first manual trans in 40 years. It is fun and makes me feel young again. I vote Manual 6 Speed.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,189
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From: Freeport, FL
Can anyone post the ratios for both tranny's and your source of info? Thanks
Racer
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 260
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From: Bend Oregon
Funny how some compare the a4 with the m6 but then say how the a4 with 3.42 gears and a shift tune will smoke the m6. Well if we are going to mod then the m6 with twin clutch and 4.10 gears and short throw shifter will smoke the a4.....and on it goes.
It really boils down to a personal thing. There is always a faster car but shifting puts "you" more into the driving experience. I like my m6 and if I want to not think about driving I drive the suburban. either way c5s are fun......but more so with the m6.
It really boils down to a personal thing. There is always a faster car but shifting puts "you" more into the driving experience. I like my m6 and if I want to not think about driving I drive the suburban. either way c5s are fun......but more so with the m6.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,526
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From: Los Angeles California
Are you sure? I will have to check my books at home, but I thought the MN12 was the closer ratio tranny. And I thought it was the lower final drive ratio that is said to account for the lower top speed as compared to the MN6 equiped cars.
Can anyone post the ratios for both tranny's and your source of info? Thanks
Can anyone post the ratios for both tranny's and your source of info? Thanks
The MN12 is not closer ratio. HOWEVER, the first gear is shorter due to it's high ratio and therefore will allow the car to reach red-line sooner. But the ratios are spread further apart and that makes it a wider ratio. The reason it was done like this is because the LS6 spins to a higher top RPM and has the power to make better use of the power band. After 4th gear, the ratios are actually shorter than the MN6 giving the MN6 longer legs.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2010
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From: cold & windy
Are you sure? I will have to check my books at home, but I thought the MN12 was the closer ratio tranny. And I thought it was the lower final drive ratio that is said to account for the lower top speed as compared to the MN6 equiped cars.
Can anyone post the ratios for both tranny's and your source of info? Thanks
Can anyone post the ratios for both tranny's and your source of info? Thanks
FRC (MM6) - 188mph
Z06 (M12) - 176mph
even though the Z06 is going another 500rpm, the shorter gear (.84 vs .74) & the 1/2" shorter tire don't make up for it. what they do help is getting to that speed quicker.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 4
From: Freeport, FL
all MN6 cars (the RPO for manual transmission) used the 3.42 rear end regardless of whether it had the MM6 or M12 gear sets, so to make an applicable comparison, let's take a 2000 FRC & an 01 Z06 to redline in 5th gear. running the numbers in a perfect world, this is what you'll get:
FRC (MM6) - 188mph
Z06 (M12) - 176mph
even though the Z06 is going another 500rpm, the shorter gear (.84 vs .74) & the 1/2" shorter tire don't make up for it. what they do help is getting to that speed quicker.
FRC (MM6) - 188mph
Z06 (M12) - 176mph
even though the Z06 is going another 500rpm, the shorter gear (.84 vs .74) & the 1/2" shorter tire don't make up for it. what they do help is getting to that speed quicker.
I was just trying to find some numbers and came up with these:
The Z06's top speed is 171mph and the LS1's were 175mph. But I'm sure there are difference's between testing.
Gear Ratios:
LS1/MM6 LS6/M12
1st Gear 2.66:1 2.97:1
2nd Gear 1.78:1 2.07:1
3rd Gear 1.30:1 1.43:1
4th Gear 1.00:1 1.00:1
5th Gear 0.74:1 0.84:1
6th Gear 0.50:1 0.56:1
Reverse 2.90:1 3.28:1
source: http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2001/specs.htm