come on...tell me how you really feel

 

I don't know why the japanese auto makers still stick with their 'gentlemens agreement', which I've been told is a horsepower limit imposed among themselves, to around 300 hp. I know they are very well capable of producing a supercar that could keep up with the world's best supercars. If you look at another arena, sport bikes, the japs dominate that area hands down, with awesome performance, reliability (you ever see how rough the 'squids' and racers run their bikes?), and low cost. Their literbikes have near all-out race-bike performance, and can be used as daily drivers and get 50+ mpg on pump gas, with full warranty to boot. A stock GSXR1000, properly driven, can turn a 1:25 lap time at Big Willow race track.

The zx12 powerplant, at 1200 cc, produces 181 hp at the crank, which is 151 hp/liter, normally aspirated...with ram air, it goes to nearly 200 crank hp... Even more impressive is yamaha's 600 cc bike, which cranks out 120 hp, or 200 hp per liter. How many other european or american car/bikes, can produce those kinds of normally aspirated power levels, with good mileage, daily driver capability, emissions/DOT legal, and reliability? It's too bad the *** bike makers also imposed their own 'agreement' to limit speeds to 300 kph (186 mph), since they were afraid of eurocrats imposing speed limits on bikes.

I know they can build a sports car to compete with the world, especially with what I've experienced with their sportbikes...I'm just wondering why they haven't done anything yet...

 

 

Ya that stupid butt gentlemen agreement or whatever it is, is really screwing them in the butt.

I am not really biased on what car is better than the other, I used to think domestics suck, but thats just the subliminal message put out all over the place, trying to cover up the fact that domestics, in most cases are faster.

But you also have to look at the fact that, most japanese car makers do not focus on sports cars, they focus more on family cars. The only things I have against the 350Z is that it is that its heavy, don't really care for the exteerior, and the lack of power from the 3.5L. If nissan followed the lines of all thier other sports cars, this car would be shelling out 320+ HP on some turbo.

They did goof on this car, but they succeeded on the G35 coupe, the G35 is a luxury car and the 350Z is supposed to be a sports car, but they shell out nearly the same numbers.

BTW cramey, I am not arguing with anything you said, but some japanese people are offened by the use of the word "***", or at least someone on a different board told me that.

 

You know, I fall into the same boat as you. I REALLY wanted an RX-7 TT and almost bought one - came very close. STILL a great looking car.

I ended up with a 93 Mustang Cobra because of a job change and less $ coming in at the time. A buddy at work, with more $ than me!, got a TT Supra and we raced and I beat him constantly.

I remember the TT Supra when it came out and the hype was that it would run 12's.

Ha!

None of the Japanese sports cars have survived - (unless you call the 350Z surviving - resurrected is more like it).

I was looking forward to the 350Z. It looks pretty cool. And with a TT and low weight, it could have been a pretty sharp ride. Could have been.

 

I don't like the 350Z at all. It looks like a cross bread between an Audi TT and the the Aura CL, both butt ugly new-wave designs, with bla performance. I'm personally sick of that moon-arch, Boyd Coddington/Chip Foose inspired roofline, and chicklet style massing. Enough already! From a performance standpoint, it's probably going to stomp its rivals, the TT, Miata, and the Honda S2000, its real market targets... The sort of "whatever, yawn" segment of the market anymore.

But heck, don't pay any attention to me, I thought the New Beetle should have named the Scarab (Dung Beetle), and am not too sure what everyone sees in the new Mini either. Must be out of that target demographic sweet spot or something I guess.
:cheers:

 

I think everyone realizes that corvettes rule the car world, price was and performance wise. If only there were some cheaper forced induction alternatives (i'm a forced induction nut)

 

:lol:

 

I just bought a 02 Z06 and have had a 94 Supra TT for about 2 years.

What I am about to say is the way " I " feel about these two cars. It does not mean I am right.

There are many reasons why the Supra, RX7 & 300ZX did not make it in the States. One reason is what the average 30-50 year-old american male thinks a sports car is. Lets face it, some one that doesn't read or does much research about cars does not think Toyota, Mazda and Nissan could make a car that competes against a Corvette. The average american car buyer knows the japanese for making an affordable, economical car. So when its time to buy a sports car, why would you go looking for one at the local Toyota dealership? If you you want a real sports car, you get the american dream, a Corvette. Here is where you guys are going to hate me: from 93, when the SupraTT came out, until the C5 came out, the Supra whooped the LT1 Corvette. In fact, I would say the Supra was closer to the ZR1. It was not until the C5 came out that Chevrolet finally caught up with Toyota. Yes, the Supra was more expensive then a heavily discounted vette but you got a lot more in the Supra and not in just performance, but in quality.

As for my Supra, it has over 90000 miles and feels more solid then my 9000 mile 02 Z06. In fact the Z06 has a rattle coming from underneath the dash. My supra has no rattles and I am not easy on it either. I have run a 12.55 at 115 with my Supra on crappy Conti sports with a 2.0 60ft. My mods are down pipe ($300), exhaust ($800), K&N cone filter ($50), electronics ($100) and front mount intercooler which does nothing at my level of upgrades($1300). My Z06 has run 12.51 at 114 stock with a 1.9 60ft. I have a higher mile per hour in the Supra and it's a lot heavier. It's making more power.

Mr Steele

As for you racing your friends 93 Cobra and beating your friend in aTT Supra, you beat him by your driving not buy your car. A stock 93 Cobra against a stock 93 Supra TT, the Cobra would not have a chance.

Some articles that show some Supra stock times
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/mot...3/mt893_12.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/car...3/6-cd3-93.jpg

As for the 350Z, I would not buy one. I also don't think Nissan was trying to compete with the Corvette with there Z.


Remember this is how I feel and buy no way am I saying my word is final.

Bud




[Modified by dbhajek, 11:10 PM 11/28/2002]

 

Yeah, your Supra's not stock either, so what's the point? And how come you left off the increased boost as a mod? I'm sure your not running stock levels of boost with those times.

You sound like you're disappointed with your Z06 and love your Supra. So why don't you sell your Z06, and live happily ever after with your 9 year old, 90k+, overweight Toyota that doesn't rattle? :confused:

Hope you got your flame suit on, because your post on this forum is just begging for flame attacks. And the C5 vs. modded MKIV debate is a long and heated one. :mad :p: :lurk:

 

Hey, take it easy on the

 

I'd trade the 350 interior for ours -the Z06 still has the poorest exciuse for an interior. As to quick -their are some very scary rice rockets out ther. I was in Australia last winter and attended the drags at Willowbank. I nearly died when I saw a Mazda RX 7 wheels up heading down the track . sounded like a huge vacum - 7.91 nearly 200Mph so I went over and had a long chat with the owner. A computer nerd from California. He drove it to the track and I saw him leave the track. No trailer, just a couple of slicks stuffed in the back. Told me it was a 3 rotor with a turbo. All I recognized was the turbo. :eek:

 

Bud,

I'll gladly take the compliment on my driving (or insult to my friend's) but I'm not sure the difference was as pronounced. I knew of people running 13.8's with a stock 93 Cobra.

To be fair, I had put 3.55's in the car (it came with 3.08's) by the time I raced him (for a whopping $325 - $175 for the gears and $150 for the install) but other than that I had a stock car.

I ran 13.8's in that configuration. I eventually did a little exhaust modification and got the car to a 13.73 later.

But what got me was that his mphs weren't any better than mine in the races. That is either some REALLY poor driving on his part, or his car wasn't making the power it should.

We had our first race from a toll booth :) and it was very interesting because in first and second gear we were side by side, very even and I was pulling him VERY SLIGHTLY.

We later raced at the track where I beat him by 0.2-0.3 consistently over 3 grudge matches.

According to one of your links, the Supra was good for 13.6 - in which case, the cars were certainly within striking distance of each other. But the TT was not some roaring 12 second car out the door of the dealership.

And STOCK Supras were not beating stock LT-1's in 1993-1996. Not anywhere I ever saw. Maybe a great driver in a TT Supra vs some guy in an auto tranny LT-1 who was just out for a weekend - his first time at the strip to see what the car would do - but not decent driver vs decent driver. It just wasn't that fast from the factory.

And when you start turning up the boost, that's great - until something gives. But most turbocharged or boosted engines only have so big a margin of strength built in to the bottom end. Buick was somewhat of an exception, the 3.8 was a racing block, but even they would break eventually under enough boost.

I like the Supra's looks. And I'm sure you are correct, it is a nice car and well made. Incidentally, his was a red 94. But I am constantly disappointed in the Japanese "super cars." They seem to miss some key ingredient to put the cars over the top.

As I mentioned earlier - I REALLY liked (and still do like) the RX-7 when it came out in the new gen. But it "just missed" in several areas. Almost, but not quite is the theme for the Japanese super cars in MY humble opinion.

The Z06 has definitely got rattle issues. My dash does too. I think that is because the Corvette faithful refuse to complain about the cars and just put them on a pedestal. I wish more of us would gripe about the car's flaws (stereo, squeaks and rattles - NO WHERE to put ANYTHING in the car, etc.) so GM might feel compelled to improve them.

But it's still a kick in the pants to drive and I'd gladly take on even a modded Supra any day on any race (except perhaps an autocross in a parking lot - I'm not sure how good the C5 is in that arena.) There are a lot of Z06 owners running better than 12.5 in the quarter mile, bone stock.

All that said, I am on your side in some areas. I am not a Corvette junkie. I was brought home from the hospital in a new 1965 Mustang. My dad still has it and has resto-modded it. My first car was a 1968 Cougar which was hot-rodded like crazy over the years I owned it. I had a Toyotoa Celica for college (gas mileage and hatchback for storage!) and then my first new car was a 1988 Mustang 5.0 followed by a 1993 Mustang Cobra.

When the C5 came out in 1997, I KNEW right then that I was going to eventually get one. I waited until the tail-end of price-gouging and in Dec 1999 I got a 2000 coupe. When the Z06 came out with 385hp I was tempted, but my car was only a year old. A year later, 405hp and I was drooling.

I now own a 2002 Z06. But I am just a mercenary driver. I'll go to the car that impresses me most (and that I can afford) at the time.

So that is one of the reasons I AM so disappointed in the 350 and others. If Japan made a new RX-7 (or whatever) that really did outperform the Corvette, and looked great and had better quality, I'd be looking!

But I think the Z06 has raised the bar so high that it is unlikely that it will ever happen. The car looks great. It has over 400 hp, and may get more over time - or in it's next iteration (and/or name) and handles like a slot car - quality is "acceptable."



[Modified by Tom Steele, 8:43 AM 11/29/2002]

 

stingray454

Never did I say I was disappointed in the Z06. All I was trying to say is this, the Supra did not fail because of its performance or quality. One of the reasons, I think, it failed was of price and uninformed people thinking that a Corvette should out perform a Totoya Supra. Like I said, from 93 till the C5 that was not the case.

Yes I am running about 1.2 bar of boost($80), I forgot. The reason I put my numbers up was to show that the supra is not all hype. There are plenty of cases of stock supra running very low 13 but I never ran mine stock so I can't tell you what mine would have run.

rbartick

He does not have to take it easy on me, its a forum and he can say what ever he wants, like I can. Like I said in my post in no way is my words gospel and this is just my opinion.

I am not car loyal, what ever gives the most bang for the buck it what I look for. The Supra and Z06, I feel, is a great bang for the buck car. I don't think that either is the end all of sports cars. I would sell both if something better came along.

Bud

 

Well said, as you put it they can be "bang for the buck" cars, however, I can make a geo metro go faster than a vette in the 1/4 with enough mods :lol: . Plus, the geo would out handle and pace a supra or a vette on a track :lol: . But I like both cars, (z06 and the Supra)...there are not too many supra owners around these parts...maybe 1 supra 1993 in the area.
When purchasing a car, I look at alot of factors....not just performance. Such as, looks, appeal, history etc. and to ME the vette was a clear choice at the moment. (got mine for 30K w/ 3 year warranty during the summer). Some would take a flyin' miata over my vette.....suit yourself :cheers: .


[Modified by needhlp, 3:50 PM 11/29/2002]

 

Mr Steele

Great post.

I also agree with you about a lot of things.

At this moment there is nothing you can buy new from japan that can compete with the Z06.

I buy bang for the buck, which sounds like you do.

Raising the boost, with stock twins, is nothing to the 2J engine. In fact 600rwh on the stock engine in nothing to these engines and is the norm now a days, and know 700 - 800 rwh supra are starting to pop up every where. Again this are all on the stock block.

Injoy your Z06, I know I am.

Bud

 

The Z06 DOMINATES autocross. Take a look at the SCCA Solo II finals and Pro Solo results for the past 2 years, and you will see that Z06s finish first in all of the classes they compete in, both stock and modified. Not only that, but they often have the quickest course times of ANY street car.

12.5 is about average for an '02+ Z06. Many are in the low 12's, and a very rare few have hit 11.9s, bone stock on original tires. One has even hit almost 11.7s with just ETs, everything else bone stock. :cool:

 

Thanks for the info. I figured it might, but I wasn't sure. And I know that often cars which handle well on a track, don't always do as well in the tight confines of a traffic-coned parking lot.

Now I know...

 

DB,

I just saw your location in your profile. My brother lives just off Murrell Road in Viera. I grew up in Rockledge. When I was growing up, Murrell T-boned into Barnes (it didn't keep going South) and we would drag race down Murrell from there as a start-line. Viera was cow-pasture back then!

No doing that now!

Gus Hipp had better traction and ended up being our place of choice though - for the most part.

I tried to get my brother to buy my old Corvette but he didn't have the cash, so he just bought a titanium Mustang GT.

He has had some fast cars in the past. He had an 86 TA that he eventually dropped an SB 400 into and ran 12.40's.

And he had a Nova with a 454 that was race only, it ran low 10's.

I think he's getting tame now! <grin>

It is funny, because his first car was that 1965 Mustang and he had it all hotrodded in High School. But after that, he has almost exclusively owned GM (Chevy/Pontiac) stuff.

Now we have turned tables and I have a Chevy and he has a Ford.

It's a small world. If you see a silver Z06 with SC plates over the Christmas holidays be sure to wave!


[Modified by Tom Steele, 5:30 PM 11/29/2002]

 

Wow what a small world. I live on murrell myself. Email me when your in town and so we can have a drink and talk cars. Also something not related but thought you might find interesting, having to do with your vararam debate. When I was running my Z06 at Bithlo I ran into a 01 Z06 owner and he said removing his air filter gave him two mile an hour.

Bud