I recall when the C5's were new that comments were made that the throttle "tip in" was deliberately gentle to stop drivers getting into trouble when they pressed the "go" pedal. On my '98, you have to push the pedal down quite deliberately to really get it to "move". Been like that from new. If you are gentle with the pedal, these cars are by design very easy for an unskilled driver to handle without scaring himself/herself s***less. Funnily enough, rather "gentler" than the throttle response on my Genesis G80. Give the pedal on that a good prod at a stoplight and it's neck snapping quick off the mark - a very low 1st gear (8 speed auto), and AWD so no wheel spin at all.

 

"we are determining how to get the DBW handicapped C5 to accelerate faster"

"We" are not. You have and that's admirable. The discussion always was about controlling a DBW Electric throttle more accurately and efficiently. Not with HP, TQ gearing or even drivetrain. The topic is raising the reaction rate an ECU operates an electric throttle.

This topic always get confused with all out accelaration. This isn't about covering the 1/4 mi faster. You will never change an ECU induced DBW throttle lag with any gear or heads or Any power additive no matter what.
This is an electronic ECU control issue only. End of subject.
FWIW; I also owned a Maico 450 factory racer, Yamaha YZ400 and rode a Honda Elsinore 250. All Two Stroke as well. Although they were very quick; None had a DBW throttle which cause the issue C5's have either. Please don't misunderstand the issue between responsiveness and throttle lag by DBW.
Thanks
Hary

 

My brother raced with his Maico 490 Mega circa 1983-87. Excellent bike. He sold it to buy his '65 Chevelle, which he still owns. I didn't know Maico made a 450.

I guess I'll never see or get the point of any device or mod if it doesn't actually net any benefits in track times/ETs.

I guess we are just after different outcomes here, Harry. I'm more interested and focused on what can actually be done to make a stock C5 or any C5 for that matter more responsive, faster to accelerate as well as fun to drive. All of which can be done "mechanically" as it stands today.

Seems you are more focused on smoking out throttle lag in a fuel table, a bit of throttle poke to get your giggles, and actual overall performance doesnt matter much. Different strokes

 

I agree with you on that. My post was simply referring to times gone by. When the only option was mechanical.

 

I will still argue that using a throttle controller is in no way some sort of 'fakery'. Today's cars are highly computerized and controlled in every way. The 'lag' in DBW systems is built into the cars for safety and efficiency reasons, and for the most part, those parts of the ecu calibration are untouchable. Meaning, changing those results in a high chance of bricking the ecu.

Now, for someone that doesn't want to modify the cars mechanicals, engine or driveline, and just wants a little more tip in, or a little quicker get go from a stop, without having to punch the pedal. These are solid devices.

Going back to my LS3 Camaro. It was even a manual. The throttle response at low end pedal travel was horrible, to the point of ridiculous. However, when I pressed further, like getting on the highway from a ramp, it became exactly like an on/off switch. When put the throttle controller on it, I had a lot more control over it and the response was not only quicker, but more linear all the way through the pedal range. It was actually more predictable. In my 2018 Camaro SS I felt no need to get one, nor in my current 2020 Challenger Scat Pack because those cars have a sport and track mode which do pretty much the exact same thing the throttle controller does, only via the cars ecu.

The nice thing was it still had warranty on it. At the time, I had no desire to modify the engine or driveline in any way. I just wanted better throttle response. To me, the idea of adding an electrical device to overcome an issue like this is perfectly in line with today's electronically controlled cars. I put in that class of modification like the VATS bypass and LMC5 column lock bypass. It simply jumps the built-in throttle mapping.

 

Oh, now I follow. I'm so used to debating over gear swaps with guys around here that speak negatively about them but never actually own or have even driven a C5 with a gear swap.

It's pretty simple, maximize your tune with a professional tuner like Charlie, Juilo, Doug etc. (not your own wack attempt to hobby tune your car), port and polish your TB, and if that doesn't give you your fix...put a gear in it.

When that becomes lame, which it likely will, do heads, LTs and cam. Then when that becomes a snooze fest...procharge it.

That idea of a pedal device in a C5 is joke to those that have done some or all of the above mods.

 

This originally was a discussion here on a specific topic of ECU throttle control as it relates to All C5’s and not power additives or at all about adding some additional equipment for gains in power are great but that’s another topic. Some people mistakenly labeled throttle lag as just poor acceleration and replaced it with power adds and incorrectly relabeled the issue as flat out acceleration behavior corrected by gears and HP. So not the origin of the issue
My personal vehicle, although others feel obligated to mention is irrelevant to the original topic. Since you brought it up though, I am waiting for bearings and seals for a 3:42 carrier and will be doing other repairs and parts. All related to performance. Not the issue, not the point. Many; who don’t seem to have a clear base understanding confuse or cloud the issues and voice their own opinions like has happened here. It’s okay to say acceleration is an end goal but it’s outright silly to deny or mask DBW issues and say it’s not really there. I salute anyone who wants to modify their own car just never have seen owners blindly overlooking obvious the and not looking at documented facts
Good Luck in all areas of personal car care and higher levels of performance whatever they are

 

First and foremost...I didnt say DBW lag wasn't there. I said...and continue to say there are ways to improve throttle responsiveness in the C5. Which there are..with a proper tune, porting and mechanical upgrades. If your car lags...it's likely also slow.

The fact there isn't a pedal device that exists for the C5 makes any opinion on it as it applies to the C5 completely moot.

I tried to hear you out and allow for the benefit of the doubt with pedal devices like the Pedal Commander. In my attempt to prove myself wrong. I read marketing statements and watched a dozen or more hip-hoponomis's, zit faced teens and herbs make claims their cars were faster on YouTube.

So then I searched for an hour to find one manufacturer with video footage track testing their devices. Nope not one.

I then figured I'll look for a few videos of track tests by consumers ..again...nope not one. Then I found one...almost. Challenger guy reviewing the pedal commander states "he has not been able to gain any net benefits at the track "because his wheels spin more" but "my car is more fun to drive". He also went on to reference a guy he knows track tested his Challenger with & without the Pedal Commander. Performance variance was non existent from city setting to sport 4...and you guessed it...without the Pedal Commander on.

So let me ask...if pedal controls were in fact not just a gigle gimmick wouldn't the manfucturers have at least ONE track proven video on YouTube vs. Customer testimonials from zit faced teens, gangstas and my Great Aunt Batunea?

You basically paid $300 to make your throttle pedal shorter. Soweet!

 

In my investigative nature (I do it for a living) I also sourced this artifact from 2007. I think you and everyone on this thread either for or against a pedal controller should read this white paper.


https://www.toyota-4runner.org/attac...intbooster-pdf


It's a long read with data logs and graphs. If this doesn't put this to bed nothing will.

Sorry Harry.

 

I currently have a '97 that I bought with an iron block 6.2, with a big cam. Unfortunately, in the old saying, "cheap, fast, reliable, pick any two" the previous owner picked cheap and fast. So it's at the shop getting the reliable upgrade. It has 3:73 gears and putting about 450 to the wheels. Yeah, it doesn't need a throttle booster, lol.

I think that the real factory throttle lag came about in the GenIV engines, which is about the time that Toyota was having issues with their DBW. Car makers did it for safety and emissions. Like I said, a throttle controller works when you don't want to crack your engine or void your warranty and want just a little more linear response. But like anything, there's a trade off. Like the controller in the LS3, every once in while, the controller would glitch and throw the car into limp mode. A simple reprogram would fix it most of the time. Sometimes it would require a removal and reinstall.

 

In my early days of hot rodding cars and modifying my C5's I unfortunately took the cheap/fast approach myself. As I got older and smarter...I realized "cheap" is anything but in the long run. Fortunately for some of us, like me and yourself, we are in a position where we are able to bake all three components (fast, reliable,costly) into the same cake.

The white paper I attached above was found on a Toyota forum, and interestingly enough, written and researched by an MB 230 owner. Which I've also confirmed in the "related thread" below that Harry G. Also has an MB 230.

Now after my research within the last 24 hours...my stance is more solidified. I'll take the findings of the guy with a DATQ data logger attached to his pedal accelerator sensor and the TPS. (Over anyone with a placebo effect and a lazy right foot).

My position on DBW, however; has since changed after my findings. Apparently my misconception of lag with DBW was more rooted in the fact that stock C5s are just slow. This is amplified drastically with an A4 sans a proper tune and the right gears. Not the DBW "handicap" I've convinced myself was reality.

The throttle controllers are in fact "fakery" but if it makes people with lame cars and lazy driving habits "feel" better great! But let's not be fooled...one can also be the throttle controller... without spending $300, if they just learn how their car needs to be driven.

 

Yeah, in my search for a C5, I had two major requirements, a coupe and a manual trans. I had looked at an '01 that was bone stock, 116K miles but in reasonably good condition. When I drove it, well, it was less than exciting. coming from a Dodge with 485 HP, and having owned a 455 HP Camaro and a 423HP Camaro before that. It did indeed feel slow. Then I drove the modded one and it was night and day. Looking back, I think I would've been better off getting the stock one and building it from scratch. But, oh well, lesson learned.

I read the attachment. In his first graph of the stock accelerator, it shows clearly the factory designed lag between pedal position and throttle position. As far as the claim about just pushing harder on the pedal, there are two things. First, is that the MB had the adaptive dbw, which adjusts according to how the driver is using the throttle. I'm not so sure that many of the other car makers were using this technology, and he did mention that it depended on how deep he pushed the pedal and how quickly. My second point is strictly from my experience with the LS3 Camaro, which was a manual trans. The lag was horrible until about 50%. However, if stabbed it to 50%, the throttle then acted exactly like an on/off switch. At that point, the thing would take off like a rocket, which wasn't good in every situation. That said, after the last time the booster sent the car into limp mode, I just took the damn thing out.

 

I'm not one to purchase anyone else's "experiments" either. More than 3/4's of guys modifying their cars cut corners for cost savings, or Frankenstein their builds with a JEGS and Summit catalog. I was once this knucklehead. Then they beat the ever loving **** out of their cars then turn around and sell them right before they blow up.

You're always better off buying it new or getting one stock. At least you know what you're starting with.

I have a 2004 6 series BMW with a adaptive throttle control. I can reset the shift points of ths trans with the key on pressing the gas pedal to the floor in sequence.

When my wife has been driving the car I get in it and immediately recognize the shifts are softer and less responsive throttle wise. If I press the gas it's a slow linear reaction. If I stab the gas the throttle reacts immediately as does the transmission. I can reset it or I can drive it "sporty" for a while and it relearns my patterns.

At the end of the day the data doesn't lie. Nor do track times. So until someone proves Dick Pipes data to be incorrect or folks start publishing video content with track proven performance....the problem is the driver more so than it is the DBW.

Or even better yet...get your car tuned, port your TB and do gears for starters. Those that have don't make these claims about pedal devices. And if they did...they don't post the mods.

 

When I first got to drive the 03 Coupe I bought; LS-1, auto, 2:73 rear, I was disappointed with the throttle response. A reprogram helped, then cold air intake, then new LS-6, long tubes, high flow cats, HD auto trans w/ 3000 stall lock up converter, 3:42 rear gears, and drag radials. Be careful what you wish for, cause it never ends! PS No hesitation now!!!)

 

Thanks for sharing. As I mentioned before the only testing I was able to find on gm/LS dbw throttles specifically reached pretty much the same conclusion. I think they have their minds made up already though

 

So much info not being understood and confused with assumptions around what DBW throttle is responsible for and how it can be corrected to help with
( this where people insert their own “assumptions “ about the characteristics a DBW signal amplifier is capable of and personally attach their own level of information and they are welcome to that )

Controlling electronic engine inputs in a manner that allows the user more responsive feel, some here assume isn’t feasible

Again, somehow a brand name device and a V8 MB have wound up as documented hard evidence and become more personal assumptions.
I happen to own both of them but in no way have any direct involvement what so ever. What I can say is that the attached research is biased, not real world factual and Incomplete. I have personal hands on, long term usage it performs much stronger than without.
Another misdirected issue is the German ECU pedal adaptive comments are off base. Those who have one understand it’s “adaptive only” and nothing like a signal amplifier level of use and being permanent
Also the misinformation about actual DBW enhancement being fake or a God Particle or hurting performance is not true
Getting back to relevancy and particularly the C5. Several here say it’s impossible to achieve slightly higher response on any C5 or you should, thru ECU enhancement. C5’s performance is very OG (mechanical based) and say owners (like me) confuse reactions and speed with adding more power.
Again; no one has stated DBW signal enhancement makes more power than original. It can however access some power the vehicle was not effectively using and that is the key.
Bottom line is I’ve been using this control for 10 yrs and it’s very safe, effective and works for me.
Thanks
Stay safe
Hary

 

Oh Hary. You keep throwing around "lack of understanding" and assumptions". There are absolutely zero videos or hard evidence of track proven performance with a throttle device and there is a white paper with actual data collected from testing a device. Which now you claim is "bias" because it goes against your opinion that you still keep claiming as facts.

The device changes how much pressure you need to put on your pedal to reach maximum throttle. That's it. Your "years of experience" using one doesn't change that fact.

Here's a thought...you conduct the DATAQ data logging yourself, measure pedal position against TPS, post your findings, and prove us naysayers wrong.

I look forward to your gear swap results. Once you have the 3.42s and the proper tune you'll stop peddling (see what I did there) this nonsense.

 

You three or four guys have, for me, opened my eyes to the pictureless world of fuel management in the C5 Corvette... You've entised my thoughts to the engineering facts of the C5 fuel management system.. even if a majority of folks, C5'ers, are in denial or should I say misled? by only partially understanding the initial question... 😊 I clime out of the Vette and into my lady's Volvo C30, depress the go peddle, as I would in the Vette and damn near chirp the drive tires!!... THAT demonstrates the designed lag inherent with the LS1.... Now I know the Rest of the story!

 

The Volvo C30 has a 1st gear drive ratio of 4.66. The C5 3.06. Ever stop to think that maybe that chirping you are getting is coming from that low geared 1st gear in the Volvo?

 

More personal experience, no data. Where are some sources for the "designed in" throttle lag, and how come it doesn't show up when measuring pedal input vs TPS?