Thanks for the advice. I haven't ruled out AFR heads yet as I like the flow characteristics of the heads. I am, however, aware that milling the decks and running a thinner gasket can increase compression, I'm also aware of the issues that can arise when doing so (i.e. valve/piston handshake, milling required on intake manifold to match, issues with mounting positions of accessory brakets, etc.) In addition, I'm most likely going to be running nitrous (as I already am) and (at least from experience on my 71 chevelle drag car) thin gaskets and nitrous often don't mix). I like the PP heads as I can achieve a 11:1 compression ratio without any mods to the heads and I belive I can run a .600 lift cam without modding the pistons. However, with the 227cc intake runners I'm likely going to loose a little on the lower end...possibly a non-issue if I went with a 3600 rpm stall. I like your advice about taking my time and making well-informed decisions....it can really pay off. That worked for me with my Chevelle. I'm running a 4.56 rearend, 4000 stall, stock 350ci (10:1) with worked "camel-back" 327 heads (I did the work myself with my dremel ), roller cam, roller rockers, strip dominator intake, reworked 750cfm holley (again with my dremel ) and with 100hp shot of nitrous I've run a best of 10.98 with slicks! Not bad with basically junk-yard parts...motor is already pushing 100k miles!
I'm after the same results with the vette...shouldn't be a problem...better motor, better drive train, lighter car...recipe for success!!!

 

Thanks for that correction, I have seen guys have to install the roller rockers on these heads as well to obtain correct geometry.

 

Hi vettenuts,

My 215 ETP Heads were delivered from FTI with the "Custom Factory Rocker Arm Stand"...with no additional charges and geometry was PERFECT first time!!!

Christian

 

Verano...

Let me quickly add that a smaller welded up chamber (not requiring a mill for lower CR) doesn't automatically equal more performance. It simply means the valves are more shrouded in aluminum wihich hurts low and midlift flow actually doing just the opposite (costing you power). The best situation is a more "open chamber" design for lack of a better word, milled to yield the same combustion chamber volume and CR, while retaining the better low and midlift flow characteristics.

Now you have made more power to due the higher CR and it hasn't been offset by a loss in flow (unless you aggressively mill the heads which isnt really relevant in this conversation).

Catch you guys later....

Tony

 

Good point.

 

Total Engine Airflow (TEA) makes LS1/6 killer heads also I just went with and their LS6 Stage II heads that use the same technology they developed for the Trick Flow heads and flow almost identical to the TRICKFLOW on both the intake an exhaust.

The heads come fully assembled with dual gold or platinum valve springs for $1,320 and a core exchage for other LS6 head. YOu can get bare Casting for the core charge for LS6 heads for $425 shipped like I did, bring the total price of the heads down to $1,765.00 which is a decent deal for what you are getting.

Here is more info from TEAs websight including the very impressive flow number for these heads through the entire rpm band:

.100 67 54
0.200 139 120
0.300 219 179
0.400 271 224
0.500 308 248
0.550 315 255
0.600 320 260

Our latest and possibly best performing LS-6 head for
stock 3.900" bore Ls-1's,this head incorporates our
latest valve and valve job technology developed for
the TFS Ls-1 heads. We supply the head with the
TFS/Ferrea 2.040"intake valves and 1.575" exhaust valves.
Intake runner volume is 225cc. Assembled using
dual gold springs and titanium retainers with GM locks.
Heads come standard at 65cc but can be milled to customer's
desired volume for compression.

 

Two other things I like about the AFR heads.
#1 They run a thicker deck than OEM castings.
#2, I like the dual quench combustion chamber design.
But if you are on a tight budget, I can understand going with some Ported and polished OEM heads.

Also, I wouldn't get to caught up in flow numbers too much. There is such a thing as too much flow. Port velocity is just as important, and if you go with too big of a port, then you will loose port velocity. Unless you are building an all out RPM only drag car, I would watch out for port sizes.

 

I think a lot is about combinations but with these results I say AFR's
savage1

 

No matter which heads you go with you will still need a tune to compliment the upgrade.

 

I know there is no substitute for dyno time but are hand-held tuners a reasonable substitute?

 

NO.....with a capitol "N"

There simply not as effective and you must be on the dyno with a wideband to really see whats going on.

It would be silly to spend thousands on parts and labor and not get the car professionally tuned. The money you try to save could cost you a third or more of the performance gains you paid for. If its a logistics thing unfortunately you will have to bite the bullet and either drive a long distance or tow it. Its simply part of the head/cam process. Allocate additional money to the tune and find the right guy to spend it with. That will allow you not only to get the most power out of your investment but also make it a safer one (the wrong tune can hurt parts costing you more money in repair bills).

Tony

PS....Savage1....awesome results with the heads cam swap. How big was the cam you installed?

 

Man youve actually got an amazing tuner right in your backyard. check out http://www.dougrippie.com/. Doug is a reputable tuner and is in Buffalo,MN. I live in Fargo, ND and if I ever work up the funds to do a h/c im going right to DRM afterwards

 

I think I can give you some good input as I just pulled off a pair of PP Stage II LS6 style heads and replaced them with AFR 205's. The PP's were 59cc welded chambers and the AFR's are milled down to 59cc. There are no fitment issues with the milled AFR's. I kept the same 232/240 .585"/.608" 114lsa cam with both sets of heads and both used stock MLS gaskets.

That said, I am extremely happy with the change. Like Tony said, the larger runners combined with the welding of the chamber offsets the added compression of the PP's. I only have a seat of the pants impression right now, but power from 4500rpm on up seems slightly better. from 2000-4500rpm, however, its a different car. With the PP's, the car felt similar to a VTEC motor when it switches cam profiles. This was also visible on the dyno sheet that came with the car. There was a clear jump at 4500rpm with the PP's. After the AFR's, that jump is not there. Its only smooth, linear power.

I bought the heads used and already milled, but if I could change anything, I'd go up to a 62cc chamber and run a .040" gasket.

 

Tony is a smart man when it comes to heads/cam and especially his own product. He helped me with my decision and when I get them on, I think it will be perfect

 

Gotta agree w/Chris about Tony!! He spent 30 minutes on the phone w/me & put my mind at ease about my own choice between AFR's ( 205 vs 225 ). At first glance the 225's would seem to be the best choice for my F1-R'ed 383 but Tony advised me that the 205's would keep the intake velocity higher & since mine is a D/D, 'nuff said! If I was after big numbers on the dyno & wouldn't mind the car being a little "lazy" in the lower rpm range then I'd go 225's. Besides, the 205's & 225's use the same casting so I can always have the 205's reworked into 225's should I decide to build another motor ( I'm thinking more cubes here ).
I wanted the AFR's originally for the thicker decks which R better for reducing the potential for head lift under boost ( either from S/C; turbos or nitrous ) but I'll take more airflow as a bonus as well. IMHO, decide how far U want to take your project & save up for the correct head now for, as it's be mentioned here more than once, it's cheaper in the long run to spend the $$ now rather than have to switch parts later.

Gene

 

Oh, I'll be doing the work myself...so there won't be any labor charges. I was planning on doing the head and cam swap myself this winter...not much else here to do in Minnesota. Sometime in the early spring I'm planning on the rearend/TC upgrade. I'd like to limit it to one trip to the tuner but I don't want that to mean I have to tow the car to the tuner nor that I can't drive the car until its tuned. I would hope that the stock programming would be sufficient to prevent engine damage (spark advance, air/fuel mixture, etc.) but I do recognize that a re-spin of the computer would be necessary to maximize performance for my driving style. Any thoughts on that?

 

well its not too far of a drive from St. Paul to Buffalo if you chose to use DRM, only about 50 miles

 

If you don't go crazy on big cam it should drive OK to the tuners. Last time I went, with the FAST setup, I actually swapped out to my larger injectors in the parking lot before the tune.

As for the tune, he spends a good hour or so on the road driving the car using different throttle positions and making sure it will drive nicely for normal driving, then it goes on the dyno. So there is really a lot of time invested for the tune other than just that of the final dyno pulls. Make sure whoever does your car is going to spend the time to do all the street tuning as well as the final dyno tuning.

Since you have a long winter (longer than us ) you should devote a month or two reading up on cams and heads and then start selecting your parts (David Vizard has some good books he has written on small blocks, very good reading). I am doing heads next spring and have been spending the last month or two collecting different parts, picking up a few tools I wanted for the job, etc. The installation is the last part of the puzzle. I rather enjoy all the planning, etc. that goes along with the final installation. Once I have the heads in hand, I will spend some time this winter on the bench checking my wipe patterns of the rockers, etc. so I will have that dialed in as well. Then there is no rush when I actually do the installation. I can clean the block, check my PTV, measure my pushrods and order them so they will arrive when I am ready for them.

 

IMHO You are already starting out wrong. If you install the 3.42 gears instead of the 3.73 gears you will regret it. Your 3200 stall is minimumal. Rethink stall. Think about 3600 stall with 3.73 gear. AFR HEADS and T/F heads cost more for a reason. They work!!!! You are 100% right about about one thing. If you have to do mod's on a budget it sucks. No matter how much H/P you are putting out if the stall and gear aren't right all the H/P in the world does little good. In the end it's you who must make the choices. Good luck with your decisions. Frank

 

Some people on the forum dont have the luxury of having deep pockets ,i agree with the stall i would go to a 3600 also.But when i did a Rear change they wanted 2k for the 3.73 & 1k for a 3.42 .i went with the 3.42 ,Thats for the chunk allready setup all i had to do is drop it in