Real-life experience with active handling?
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 87
From: Horncastle Lincolnshire, England
2023 C5 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Actually it's about 500hp at the flywheel and C5s have independent rears, not live axles. But I'm nitpicking.
I also drive my mildly-modded 98 Camaro SS year-round, especially as my primary transportation through the rough winters we get here in the Northeast. Have been doing so for 10 years. No AH on that one either.
To me, relying on a computer to save your bacon is dumb. Learning to drive is a better option. I've gotta buy one of those little gizmos that automatically turns off your AH every time you start the car!
Dope
I also drive my mildly-modded 98 Camaro SS year-round, especially as my primary transportation through the rough winters we get here in the Northeast. Have been doing so for 10 years. No AH on that one either.
To me, relying on a computer to save your bacon is dumb. Learning to drive is a better option. I've gotta buy one of those little gizmos that automatically turns off your AH every time you start the car!
Dope
Some can; many can't.
the Tornado I flew wouldn't fly without computers. the F4 I flew didn't have one. Each had its strengths and vices but it was designed to do a job. Cars are the same. If AH is not needed why did GM install it? Mainly for the average driver who has worked out that he's not invincible. And before you ask, I've had friends kill themselves in computer controlled aircraft, low power cars and motor bikes. I learned on a manual 37 years ago, I've had one accident, lived in England, Italy, Germany and the US and driven in most European countries. The max speed I made in a jet was Mach 2.1 and in a car 176. Oh, and it rains in England. I think I can drive.......................
If you have the experience go for it. Most drivers don't. There are Old Pilots and Bold Pilots; But there are no old, bold pilots
I've survived and my car is in one piece after 6 years but I trust the AH when its needed. I turn it off when it's not - but that's not often..
Out.
Last edited by DeeGee; May 27, 2009 at 04:16 PM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,058
Likes: 9,821
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
The best way to find out how it works is to go to an autocross and drive through a slalom with AH in Comp mode. That way you will feel it applying a single brake to yaw the car in the direction you intend to go. Don't try to exaggerate your steering moves. Just drive the way you would with a car that doesn't have AH and you will see what it does and doesn't do. By the way I have never had it pull throttle except when I leave the TC on. It doesn't fight the driver it assists the driver by yawing the car in the direction the driver is trying to make it go. The smoother you are the less it activates.
Bill
Bill
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,058
Likes: 9,821
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
And before you read on, please understand that the miata outhandles the corvette. Yep, i said it, and i'm speaking the truth. I know many vette driver's dont believe me, go do some research if you dont, you will find i'm correct. Of course this applies to handling specifically, not the overall capability of the car, but specifically handling and lateral Gs. My miata was 1,000 lbs lighter than my C5, too. Ridiculously fun cars. It's SOO fun that it becomes a stupid amount of fun, and an addiction. Anyway....
I can verify they outhandle a Corvette. Its difficult to overcome a 1000 lb weight advantage. They will kill a Vette in an autocross but the Vette will kill them on a road course. The power and speed become a real advantage and the Vette can even corner faster than a Miata on some road course corners.
Of course the vette is harder to handle than a miata because of the additional horsepower and larger size, and the handling is epic but it's main advantage is it's wheelbase/layout and horsepower over the miata which makes it the overall more capable car. But the same basic skillset always applies.
What i'm getting at is i understand how to manage speed, braking, traction, track-out, correct oversteer, correct understeer, induce one if i desire it, etc etc...
So... Let's say i am going 60 and the corvette begins to oversteer. In the miata i'd countersteer before i even decided to, it's muscle memory. But in the corvette, i'm not sure i should, is the AH going to fix it for me? If i don't correct i might be okay, but if i do then i may confuse the AH and the vehicle will be receiving two inputs and possibly become unstable, possibly resulting in a crash?
The situation you describe can vary somewhat depending on what else you are doing. But I have a real life example of just that speed scenario from when I first got my 03Z. I was following another Z around the off camber left at Watkins Glen and had just started squeezing the throttle when the back end slipped to the right and back into line so fast I didn't have a chance to react to it. In the video you can see the nose of the car wiggle and hear the engine rpms pick up as the rear wheels spun a little and then it was over. The speed was right in the mid 50s area.
I have road-coursed a few other high hp cars like an NSX, but they weren't mine to own, so i didnt push them 10/10 hard. I havn't had the time to race my own corvette either, save for a single half-sized free autocross put on by a local church (it was actually alright!), but i had everything turned off.
When i oversteer at 60, i'm not sure if i should countersteer, because if i do i may induce incorrect rotation due to the interaction between myself and the AH.
...What's the real story with this? I have to be absolutely positive i understand the system intimately in every conceivable way before i attempt to actually begin to try it out.
Do what comes naturally. The system assists you by determing if the car is yawing properly to follow your commands through the steering wheel.
When you do a slalom in an autocross you will get a lot of push and then maybe some power oversteer. When the front end starts to push you will feel the back inside brake being applied. Depending on how hard you are running it sometimes feels like somebody is hitting the car with a sledge hammer. As the car transitions into oversteer the front wheels start having the brake applied to slow down the sideways movement of the tail. As long as you are in comp mode the EBCM will not reduce power.
The biggest problem with using AH in an autocross is getting it to turn on in time to have any affect. Each time the engine is started the system resets so it has to recalibrate to find out where straight ahead is located. This takes driving in a straight line at over 6 mph for 200 ft or so. Hard to find a place to do that at an autocross. If you don't do that then it will set a warning message Active Handling Warming Up and about the time you finish the run it will then say Warm Up completed. However, if you don't turn off the engine the system will be calibrated for your next run.
Do as you are planning and go out and have some fun with it. One thing it can do that you can't is allow you to apply full power coming out of a slow corner and keep the back end from squirting out from under you. I did that in one autocross where we had a 90 degree corner before heading down a 150 ft straight to the finish line. As I came around the corner in 2nd I floored it and the car just vibrated as the front brakes kept switching back and forth to keep the car in a straight line. The rear wheels were spinning lightly. Everybody kept asking how I was getting off that corner so fast. So once you know how it works and behaves you can actually use it for an advantage.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,150
Likes: 6
From: NS
The AH system has a steering input sensor. If you correct the oversteer the AH system knows this and will not fight you.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,236
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From: Glendora CA
Now on my 04 the AH was totally predicatable and safe for anyone to use.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,955
Likes: 161
From: PNW
Last edited by ZeeOSix; May 28, 2009 at 03:25 AM.
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I wish I had it though, but I do disable the traction control with a laptrax.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 20
From: Knoxville TN
For the vast majority of drivers AH is a good thing and I know it has possibly saved me once or twice. I say possibly because it works so fast. Perhaps I could have saved it myself but AH straightened me out before I could even start to react.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,058
Likes: 9,821
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Thats not true for the first generation AH systems. If I try that with my 98(when it was stock too) the car thought I wanted to go in the direction I was pointing the tires to, I can get the car to swing side to side. The first time that happend I was glad no one was around. And this was on a dry road.
Now on my 04 the AH was totally predicatable and safe for anyone to use.
Now on my 04 the AH was totally predicatable and safe for anyone to use.
Bill
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 380
Likes: 1
From: Janesville Wisconsin
I hate it. its almost killed me a couple times. when you need to hammer on it and get over out of traffic....oh no...you go nowhere because the stupid active handling comes on and your stuck limping and almost causing an accident. Same with CAGS.... Many times i need to go for 2nd and avoid getting hit and im stuck there like a wounded deer limping in 4th or trying to find a gear.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,876
Likes: 254
From: Hillsboro OR
I hate it. its almost killed me a couple times. when you need to hammer on it and get over out of traffic....oh no...you go nowhere because the stupid active handling comes on and your stuck limping and almost causing an accident. Same with CAGS.... Many times i need to go for 2nd and avoid getting hit and im stuck there like a wounded deer limping in 4th or trying to find a gear.
Racer
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco Ca
I leave my AH on when I'm on the streets, but off when I'm on the track, it over-reacts to everything. It was always tugging at me and slowing me down and I wasn't sliding the car or breaking traction in the least. It must be confused!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,150
Likes: 6
From: NS
I hate it. its almost killed me a couple times. when you need to hammer on it and get over out of traffic....oh no...you go nowhere because the stupid active handling comes on and your stuck limping and almost causing an accident. Same with CAGS.... Many times i need to go for 2nd and avoid getting hit and im stuck there like a wounded deer limping in 4th or trying to find a gear.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,185
Likes: 65
From: NJ
I hate it. its almost killed me a couple times. when you need to hammer on it and get over out of traffic....oh no...you go nowhere because the stupid active handling comes on and your stuck limping and almost causing an accident. Same with CAGS.... Many times i need to go for 2nd and avoid getting hit and im stuck there like a wounded deer limping in 4th or trying to find a gear.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 380
Likes: 1
From: Janesville Wisconsin
Right, AH is what displays on the dash and its all controlled by the same button. I have to get the HPtuners lisence for this car yet to zero out all the -timing in the TC tables. Other than that I havnt noticed AH doing anything else. They should have had a seperate button for TC and AH.
The way I drive is usually if I have to get on it I throw it into 2nd that way it dont spin the tires as easily. Usually around the same speed CAGS kicks in. Im just lazy and havnt deleted it yet.. But it is the DUMBEST thing GM ever did...CAGS.. lol.
The way I drive is usually if I have to get on it I throw it into 2nd that way it dont spin the tires as easily. Usually around the same speed CAGS kicks in. Im just lazy and havnt deleted it yet.. But it is the DUMBEST thing GM ever did...CAGS.. lol.
Last edited by Pwrtrip75; May 29, 2009 at 07:38 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
Miatas are great little handling cars. put the right foot on the floor and leave it there, well almost.
I also agree that many Miatas in the hands of a capable driver will out handle and out drive a corvette on a short tight curvie road course.
Try getting into a 3400 lb car with 350+ hP plant the right foot on the floor and attempt to drive that same tight curvie road course, NOT going to happen
or 
TWO different Cars that require TWO different driving styles.
the details of AH / TC and tq mangament were given above.
Learing to drive safely, smoothly and effortlessly takes practice lots of seat time.
( I did not say slow either ) and to do this type of driving at speed takes even more seat time.
AH / TC saves lives, all cars and light trucks even mitias will have AH/ TC ( IIRC) by 2010 or 2013 - those gov mandates.
Race cars are different. Learning to slide ( not drift) a car ever so slightly though a high speed corner takes seat time, practice BIG ***** and a bit of crazyness. ( I think those last too go together) and NEW STICKY TIRES. Which is not for street driving.
for public street driving I leave it ON. On the road race courses, OFF
I also agree that many Miatas in the hands of a capable driver will out handle and out drive a corvette on a short tight curvie road course.
Try getting into a 3400 lb car with 350+ hP plant the right foot on the floor and attempt to drive that same tight curvie road course, NOT going to happen
or TWO different Cars that require TWO different driving styles.
the details of AH / TC and tq mangament were given above.
Learing to drive safely, smoothly and effortlessly takes practice lots of seat time.
( I did not say slow either ) and to do this type of driving at speed takes even more seat time.
AH / TC saves lives, all cars and light trucks even mitias will have AH/ TC ( IIRC) by 2010 or 2013 - those gov mandates.
Race cars are different. Learning to slide ( not drift) a car ever so slightly though a high speed corner takes seat time, practice BIG ***** and a bit of crazyness. ( I think those last too go together) and NEW STICKY TIRES. Which is not for street driving.
for public street driving I leave it ON. On the road race courses, OFF
Last edited by AU N EGL; May 29, 2009 at 08:30 AM.