**Update**

So, just got it back from Mike, at New Era Performance in Rochester, and apparently he had some more luck with it as the tuning went on.

With all of the mods listed below, looks like I'm currently at 342.2//355.4 hp/tq respectively. He feels 350 horse should have been possible, and that something isn't quite right, but the motor was running strong. I feel like a valve train once over would probably help, and I'll likely do that with my upcoming heads and cam, as well as new injectors and/or an injector cleaning. Thanks Bill and everyone else for the advice below too!

The car doesn't ping, however, he said he couldn't go as far forward with the timing as he usually can with ls1s and the same mods.

Do these numbers add up to most of you? My friend has an ls1 02 camaro ss with similar mods and he makes similar power.

I can post my dyno sheet if anyone is curious. Thanks for the previous help!

**End Update**



Just got off the phone from my tuner, and it looks like the car isn't responding well to my recent mods.

Here is the story:

I dropped the car off a few weeks ago, for a Borla Stinger (used) axel back muffler, and a cold air intake (halltech, new from shop), and a general dyno tune.

The car (97 ls1 coupe) made 331.67/33.48 hp/tq at the wheels, which seems spot on to me.

Now, flash forward to today.

I dropped the car off with an 1/8th of a tank of gas, and was going to get the following mods installed:

A brand new bbk 85mm intake
My throttle body ported
An OBX Long Tube header system (new, that auction site)
NGK Plugs and Wires

I was just called (my tuner stayed late, very nice of him), and it looks like those mods added only roughly 10rwhp. I was expecting more like 30-35, if not maybe even a little more.

He said the car was "pinging", pretty loudly, and he said quote "it almost sounds like a spark plug arcing". He managed to stop the pinging by pulling back timing, whereas he said with long tube headers he is able to go forward a lot, and gain more power.

Now, he is a bit stumped as to why this could be, and I am too, so I figured I would ask here.

First off, I know tons of guys here run OBX headers and made normal gains, with no problems, so please hold back the "omg china headers" arguments.

Could it be something with the new wires and plugs?

Could it possibly be because when the car was on the dyno, it was running off the reserve tank? (my first guess)

If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it. I know its hard with my limited info, but I know something is just not right here.

 

Spot on? Compared to what? I'm assuming this is a six speed car, but 331 RWHP with a cold air intake is certainly the exception to the rule..




I'm surprised. Most shops want you to fill it up before a day on the dyno.


I think it's premature to be concerned with the HP gains, considering the car can not be tuned for peak HP because there is a problem. Kind of concerns me that the are already headscratching.

 

You may try a Seafoam treatment. Could just be carbon build up in your cylinders.

 

I can post up pictures of the dyno sheet I have tomorrow when I grab a camera. Not to dispute you, just to show you what I have, if it'll help at all. (yes it is a six speed, at that time, CAI and axelback muffler)

I was very concerned too regarding about having such low gas, but I had assumed (incorrectly) that they would be able to just go put a gallon or two in and add it to the bill.

I'm giving the tuner the benefit of the doubt because I believe he is a respected member of this forum, and I know that he runs a respected shop in the community.

I won't lie though, I was expecting more help fixing this lack of power and pinging issue. I know that sound very well from my older camaro running incorrectly, and it did NOT do that before these mods.

 

First numbers were high. Don't care what the dyno said, but most cars (later with 350 hp base) were running 305-310 hp with a cold air and cat back and in the 330 range with headers (and these with the LS6 intake, not LS1). Add 10 hp for the ported intake over an LS1 intake and your numbers are now spot on.

 

What octane do you run? What afr and how much timing at WOT? What plugs tr55? What wires? Sorry, trying to get the grasp of your setup.

 

 

I'm not debating the dyno numbers, that's NOT the emphasis of my post.

I'll get the exact timing information tomorrow, and I'll post up whatever dynographs I get, and maybe that can help you guys.

Thanks for the help!

 

First: New plugs and wires do NOTHING to increase HP/TQ. I don't care what brand or price you paid for them.

Second: If the engine is PINGING,,,your NEVER going to get the most out of the engine until you can eliminate the cause of the detonation. The tuner is making compromises in your tune to eliminate the problem.

Could be one or any of the following:

- Poor fuel octane
- Poor tune
- Inadequate fuel supply (bad pump, clogged/dirty injectors, fuel pressure issue
- Carbonized valves or pistons
- Oil Ingestion problem from the PCV System

So,,,you and your tuner need to figure out why you cant run increased timing due to pinging. Find and resolve the cause of the ping and see wht HP/Tq increases you get.

BC

BC

 

I'm aware that plugs dont add power. The plugs and wires just needed to be changed, and it seemed like a good time to do it.

The car had NO PINGING issues before the addons. What was changed during the install that could have caused this?

Thats the main point of this thread, thanks for the replies so far guys, especially you Bill.

 

MORE FUEL! What were the injector pulse width percents??

If your injectors were maxed out, with your mild mods,,"and they shouldn't be",,,,they are are dirty, damaged, poor fuel volume or something that effects fuel.

When was the last time you changed the fuel filter?

Do a fuel volume and fuel pressure test to see if your pump can supply the correct fuel volume and fuel pressure.

Im just trying to help! I feel your despaire!

BC

 

If there are no issues with the car, and it appears you don't believe there are, then the dyno is where to look for answers. The weather station (if a Dynojet) can have a major impact on the results if it is not consistent or correct. Also, were both curves converted to SAE or was the first one plotted as STD? Also, was the level of curve smoothing the same?

 

Agreed!

 

My vote is bad gas. Where did you last fill up? Walmart?

 

97 heads, cam and old springs. would be my guess.

some new 243 heads, 918 springs and a medium cam will wake her up

 

Not a good vote! Typically gas stations receive their fuel from the same regional suppliers, and they typically receive their fuel from the same pipeline, and the pipeline company will get their fuel from the same refinery. So Walmart and the Chevron down the street normally have the exact same fuel.

 

Well here are the theories he came up with, and I came up, and I'm going out in a few hours to actually pick up the car and drive it:

1. The headers (mores specifically the cats, which on the OBX listing said "cat resonators" are garbage and should be hollowed out, that is the tuners idea.

2. The car was using the reserve tank on the dyno, and was possibly pulling crappy fuel or bits of sediment (the car has 90,xxx original miles).

3. There is a problem with the fuel injectors or fuel delivery in general.

I'm also worried about the dyno numbers on the original pull. Maybe the car already had long tube headers and I had no idea!

Logic would dictate though, that because there was no pinging before the mods, and there was pinging after the mods, that likely one of those mods attributed to it.

I'll let you guys know what happens when I go to pick it up.

 

On the dyno sheet in front of me, it says on the top of the page that:

CF: SAE
Smoothing: 5

And at the bottom, for the runs (2, both very similar) that the information is:

Run Type: RO, Run Conditions: 84.79%, 29.73 in-Hg, Humidity: 30%, SAE: 1.01

Does that mean anything important to you, or do you need more?

 

This statement is a tad confusing. Did you personally have the car dyno'd before the mods, or are you relying on the previous owner's information. If not, are you saying you purchased headers for your car, and did not know if you already had headers?

 

I had originally purchased a borla stinger catback and a Halltech CAI and had a dyno tune done a few weeks ago, and that is when the car supposedly made 331/333 hp/tq.

The guy I purchased the car from is turning nearly 60 soon, and he said the only mod he put was a TPIS exhaust on it, it never occured to me that possibly it was the entire system. I've been underneath the car a few times and I don't remember seeing anything that didn't seem stock.

I'm sure my tuner would have said something when he was uninstalling the old parts, but maybe not.

I wouldn't put it above myself to order parts already on the car. I run my own business(es), and I'm generally too busy to devote a lot of time to any one thing, especially my "performance daily driver". No offense or snobbery intended, just trying to make sure my car does what it's supposed to!