This has really been bugging me for a while. If you look through any auto parts catalog you'll see all kind of claims from aftermarket equipment that are extremely exaggerated. Intake systems that give you 30hp, exhaust system will give you another 10, rotors that reduce your stopping distance by x feet, the famous Performance hood seal and a dozen others. What really got me thinking about this was a "Throttle Body Air Flow Booster" which looks like a piece of plastic that you put into your TB to reduce the turbulence for better air flow and they claim 13hp for under $50 ($49.99). I'm sorry, but , you'd be lucky if you got 1hp and I wouldn't be suprised if you lost 1 or 2hp. If it was true, they wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.

Since everyone that does their homework 1st knows it's all BS, why do the manufactures make claims that no one else can duplicate and more importantly, why do we put up with the crap. Are people really dumb enough to believe this bs. It reminds me more of the stuff you would hear from the ricer crowd instead of a legitimate performance car.

 

People don't do their homework. A lot of guys don't want to put the energy and money behind a mod that gives real results. The hope is that if they get 1/2 of what the manufacturer claims is true it will be worth it. I did the throttle body mod but I didn't expect ot get anything out of it. I don't drive my car in the freezing rain so I thought it would be a good mod. I got the parts from home depot for $2 and did it in about 10mins. On the other hand I just did a h/c swap, a PCV system upgrade, new rolloer rockers, along with cam phasing etc. I did the work myself, not because I am cheap but because I wanted to know what is all about and don't want to be at the mercy of someone else. A lot of guys can't do their own wrenching for whatever reason and don't want to spend $4-5K for a real performance upgrade.
You are correct that there should be more scrutiny paid to inflated manufacturers claims, it gets really tireing reading them.

 

If you added up all the HP claimson one page of Eckler's or Mid America you'd have 500 hp vettes running around with intakes, hood seals, MAT relocators, TB inserts, TB bypasses, etc etc.!

 

That's why, in my recent posts on my header installation, I was very careful on how the information was presented and all the data was included. You wouldn't believe some of the responses from people who believe some of the claims in the advertisements and other information sources. You have to do "all" the homework so you are not disappointed in the end. I wasn't, I ended up within 1 HP of where I thought I would but if someone were expecting more they would have been disappointed.

 

Pretty much everyone exaggerates their products. It's all part of advertising. If you want to know what a product will really do all you have to do is ask someone who has already tried it.

Mark

 

I'd say that there are some mods out there that give you what the manufacturer says. The problem is, if "A" company sells an exhaust system and guarantees 20 RWHP, they probably did the install and did a dyno tune to get the most they could. Also, what they got may not be "average results". All they have to prove is they got what they said...

You know the old saying... "Results may differ than actual model..." or "actual results may differ..." blah, blah, blah.

It's kind of like reading the average mpg on window stickers. They must have an old man that cruises down hills, never exceeds 45 and doesn't hit passing gear...lol. I know I've never met the averages they claim.

The other thing is, sometimes any "1" mod may yield the expected results but many people think they can just add up HP additions and expect it to be accumulative. It just doesn't happen.

Also, many of the HP gains promoted on a bone stock system. Obviously, a bone stock motor will benefit from some mods much better than one already modified. There obviously comes a point when you simply can't get any more HP out of a particular setup.

Just my .02 worth.

Mark

 

Gee Guys I bought every bolt on performance mod MId America sells for the C5 and I now have a 714hp car. What's wrong with that ? As soon as I save up enough money I'm going to get the car dynoed - maybe I'll find out that I have EVEN MORE hp than advertised.

 

Wow! I need to loan you my Snap-on Corvette anniversary screw driver set. Every time you take off a screw and put it on it adds 5hp! Or at least that's the only way I could justify the price!

 

Thanks for your kind offer but I fear if I use your Snap-on Corvette anniversary srew drive I won't be able to prevent the rear tires from breaking loose.

 

We have enough vendor on this forum that do the same thing. Its called greed, do your homework!

 

The BIGGEST GAINS are from those Carbon Fiber Muffler bearrings and tefflon coated cylinder liners.

 

This is a good topic. It reminds me of the advertising controversy that used to exist in my other hobby, Amateur Radio. All the antenna manufacturers used to publish wildly inflated gain figures for their antennas. How did they get away with it? They standardized on comparing against a so-called isotropic radiator. An isotropic radiator is an antenna in free-space, operating above perfectly conductive ground, that radiates equally in all directions. The problem is, isotropic radiators do not exist in real life. It is an engineering modeling tool that has less gain than the typical "baseline" dipole antenna that you can construct from a piece of lamp cord. Since the source being quoted had less gain than the real-world baseline, and since it was only a theoretical source, it could be neither proven nor disproven. So, the manufacturers used it to their advantage. Basically, we were in the same situation as car owners are now -- take every claim with a grain of salt, and seek out the advice of someone who has already tried it. But even that method is not foolproof, since many people are reluctant to admit they made a mistake.

In the 1970s, QST magazine solved the bogus gain advertisement problem. They gave notice to all advertisers that effective such and such a date, they would no longer accept advertising that did not meet the magazine's published criteria. The criteria included such things as referencing real-world, repeatable sources, using standard engineering practice, etc.

Corvette Forum could solve this problem the same way. We can't wait for the FTC to step in. This forum is the leading authority on Corvettes, with a highly active membership that posseses above-average earning power. All the forum management has to do is have the courage to take the first step, and say no more. I'm sure that when QST went down this path, they had naysayers telling them that they would lose advertising revenue. The funny this is, I don't recall a single issue without ads. The manufacturers had more to lose than the magazine, so they complied.

 

That's a good idea.

 

Funny, I recently made a point about this very subject and I had people from both sides of the fence PMing me...

Bottom line is research and find out what works best from people in the know.

I got hammered for mentioning Jeff Creech, Dynotech and LS1 Edit tuner out of Durham, North Carolina, But Jeff actually keeps a log of parts that work and parts that don't.

When I started my parts search for my existing motor build, I asked Jeff what he was noticing to work and which headers/ Intakes/ TBs/ Cats/ Exhaust combos, as well as cam choices... Find someone like that who SEES and tunes C5s and other LS1 Based platforms...

I've repeatedly mentioned MY OWN issue with my 99 C5 pulling 296HP at the wheels with some "Bolt ons", only to have people state that "Something must be wrong" with my car... FUnny, cause it runs fine and does well at track events... it just ISN'T making 330 HP with the added cold air kit and Borla XR1...

Manufacturers lie, and will post a number for their part in a magical combo, tuned on the ragged edge, with a one time peak spike, and then "CLAIM" that you too can get these very same results by bolting this widget onto your otherwise stock car...

They lie. Period... And too many guys are affraid, lazy, or ignorant about working on their own cars. They want the magical "easy" bolt on solutions, because they won't do the hard work of actually MAKING their cars faster with something simple like headers and a cam. But these same swinging dicks will sit in a parking lot and tell every unaware soul who will stop and listen that they bolted on X, Y & Z widgets and are making as much HP as a Z06.

Mike

 

I also agree with BW1... There are enough dyno sheets floating around the forum that we could pull together the files with the configurations to get baselines on what combos are known platforms that work...

Example:
Stage2 heads with a Thunder 224/224 556 114 LSA cam kit, LGM Longtubes w/ 1 3/4 primaries
LS6 intake and Blackwing...

Then show the dyno run....


Mike

 

Now that the Bashing for suspected misrepresentations (some truth here) is through, how about equal time and passion to those that do perform as advertised? Any come to mind or are we simply in a bashing mood again? I agree that some inflate info. But to the best interest some do not and try to be honest with the consumer. As I recall Buyer Beware is still a byline today. Product discernment is the consumers responsibility. Vendors can and do offer the appropriate info as provided by the suppliers. If truth be known most add-on power mods are not accumalitive but inclusive. 2 or 3 mods with HP improvements usually end up equal or less than 1. This is a fact I have seen over and over on this and other forums. If a manufacturer states a gain of some sort it must have come from their mule car and from their setup. On the Hundreds and Thousands of varied car setups it would be ludicris to think that they will equal the test results even if skewed. Again I challenge some to share something they did that worked to their expectations. Markl

 

Also we should not interpret their claims wrongly. I've noticed that a lot of manufacturers of these mods use 2 words that some seem to overlook... "UP TO". So when they say gains up to 35hp and all you see is a 3hp gain, I guess their product is doing what they advertised it as doing. The way I say it, up to 35hp means any gains between 1 and 35 hp. And the reason some of us are disappointed with the product and small gains, if any at all, is because we all want to see numbers closer to the high end of their HP claim.

 

That may provide manufacturers a legal escape hatch, but it still constitutes misleading marketing (which is the point of this thread).

 

if that's what they are claiming, show me one case where it's worked like that

Just to clarify one thing. I did not intend to include the tuners here who make rwph claims on their cars with a lot of engine work. I know most of those guys (LG, MTI, LPE, and others) can deliver

 

Hmm... Will you replace the lost revenue from the vendors that are booted?