upgrading interior speakers
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Southwest Missouri
I use 1 paper cone speaker built in 1968. Placed off to the right, just like the "center channel" in my Vette. No rears because YOU said so. It's almost perfect.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
From: El Paso TX
You may need some prozac
Plain and simple: replacing 10 inch woofers with 6 inch "higher quality" is counterproductive due to the higher sensitivity of larger drivers and their ability to produce equivalent output and play lower with less power (until you reach their linear excursion limits). If you have not enough output, you can easily increase it by employing eithe first or second order high pass filters you can build yourself with great ease and for a few dollars using parts from digikey or even radio shack.
Considering the positioning of the midrange/high frequency drivers and their aiming, a premature rolloff at the upper end is actually a good thing, makes for more pleasant listening experience since even small dedicated tweeters would be rolling off quickly due to severe off axis and low positioning and the results would be worse than those paper cone drivers deliver.
If you need to gain better end extension, you could again build some first or second order hi pass filters, tap into the current speakers and perhaps try to mount some tiny supertweets in the side vents, all you would need would be about 12k up freqs playing to extend the upper end.
The center channel is actually very useful when stock speaker locations are used, it helps to make the stage more symmetrical with the listener by by making the stage narrower and thus reducing the offset with the opposite side. The center channel also helps to create illusion of music playing out higher up and to a degree, improve stage centering and imaging detail.
There is no stereo effect to speak of in any car unless it has a center seating position. When drivers are pointed at each other, you end up with a textbook definition of hard panned mono that is centered in the middle of the car and at the height well below your ears, with completely no acoustic crosstalk, this is why you hear sounds well located at the passenger side door while sitting in the driver seat and then you hear them right next to you on your side. Center channel helps to reduce this difference, you lose width but you gain more symmetry.
There is considerably more to this but I do not feel like writing a book. This information is readily available and easy to verify through practical experiments, including using earphones and simulated car listening environment setting. Alternatively, you can hide your head in the sand and follow the rest of the sheep.
Plain and simple: replacing 10 inch woofers with 6 inch "higher quality" is counterproductive due to the higher sensitivity of larger drivers and their ability to produce equivalent output and play lower with less power (until you reach their linear excursion limits). If you have not enough output, you can easily increase it by employing eithe first or second order high pass filters you can build yourself with great ease and for a few dollars using parts from digikey or even radio shack.
Considering the positioning of the midrange/high frequency drivers and their aiming, a premature rolloff at the upper end is actually a good thing, makes for more pleasant listening experience since even small dedicated tweeters would be rolling off quickly due to severe off axis and low positioning and the results would be worse than those paper cone drivers deliver.
If you need to gain better end extension, you could again build some first or second order hi pass filters, tap into the current speakers and perhaps try to mount some tiny supertweets in the side vents, all you would need would be about 12k up freqs playing to extend the upper end.
The center channel is actually very useful when stock speaker locations are used, it helps to make the stage more symmetrical with the listener by by making the stage narrower and thus reducing the offset with the opposite side. The center channel also helps to create illusion of music playing out higher up and to a degree, improve stage centering and imaging detail.
There is no stereo effect to speak of in any car unless it has a center seating position. When drivers are pointed at each other, you end up with a textbook definition of hard panned mono that is centered in the middle of the car and at the height well below your ears, with completely no acoustic crosstalk, this is why you hear sounds well located at the passenger side door while sitting in the driver seat and then you hear them right next to you on your side. Center channel helps to reduce this difference, you lose width but you gain more symmetry.
There is considerably more to this but I do not feel like writing a book. This information is readily available and easy to verify through practical experiments, including using earphones and simulated car listening environment setting. Alternatively, you can hide your head in the sand and follow the rest of the sheep.
Now, based on this post, I actually have a legitimate sound stage question for you. You already know a fair bit about my install, let's not get into how much you disagree with what I've done thus far. It is what it is, and I'm very happy with the result with one caveat: I'd like to move the sound stage up a bit without TOO MUCH effort. Above, you suggest supertweets in the vents. Can you elaborate? Mount position, angle? I was leaning towards a pair of supertweets as well, or just to add a center speaker. Keep in mind that I never had a center speaker, it's not like I removed it. I haven't taken the grill of to find out what the deal is, whether the speaker was removed, blown, etc. If I end up going with a pair of supertweets, I had initially thought of mounting them in the top corners of the windshield pointing towards the windshield itself, ala CDT upstage style. I know there are many people that have utilized this design, and it has its own benefits and drawbacks. I'm just not sure if I would want the headache of trying to equalize the windshield reflections, etc. However, I see other potential problems by mounting them in the vents, depending on what you had in mind with the install.
I know the easiest answer would be to just buy the supertweets and experiment with placement, which is what I'll probably do, but I wanted your take on it.
Olive branch.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,504
Likes: 2
From: Sacramento California
I think I am gonna hit some sanding blocks before rain comes
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,504
Likes: 2
From: Sacramento California
Why would you care? They aren't spending your money.
Your happy with the factory crap in your car, that's fine. Everyone who has changed it I'm sure is happy with the results and think it's money well spent, including myself. You can't sit there and try to tell everyone they aren't happy with the sound because it's staged wrong. Who cares.
Your happy with the factory crap in your car, that's fine. Everyone who has changed it I'm sure is happy with the results and think it's money well spent, including myself. You can't sit there and try to tell everyone they aren't happy with the sound because it's staged wrong. Who cares.
You and anyone else who thinks there is something outstanding about their effort should have no issues... Now, I really need to do some sanding. In real life, I spend very little time behind computer or laptop.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 944
Likes: 9
From: Southwest CO
Hahahahaha.....chattin' it up with Lafawnduh 
Now, back on(sorta) topic. Does it make a pretty good difference to unhook the center speak in the dash? I hear it does. Any thoughts on that?
Now, back on(sorta) topic. Does it make a pretty good difference to unhook the center speak in the dash? I hear it does. Any thoughts on that?
Last edited by b0xm0ns73r; Apr 3, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 597
Likes: 257
From: Michigan
I know the facts, the speakers, the head unit and layout are identical in 94 and 2002, amplifier is the difference and once again, all amplifiers sound the same. I am not arguing, just pointing out BS and misconceptions that seem to prevail around here. Now, get over yourself
1.) I have two systems.
2.) Something in the second system is different than in the first.
3.) The two systems are exactly the same.
This is why you guys need to stop arguing with him.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
From: El Paso TX
I enjoyed this post, as I did a few of your other ones where you ceased the name calling and idea bashing and actually threw down some unbiased facts without too much personal bias. I won't say that I agree with 100% of what you just said, but I'm on board with almost all of it, especially because you didn't throw in too many "if you don't do it like this then you're WRONG and I'm RIGHT" type comments, which was refreshing. Unfortunately, you've discredited your name to the point where hardly anyone is really reading your posts for what they are because you've developed a such a reputation. Now I'm sure you don't give a crap what other people on the forum think of you. All I'm pointing out is, all this name calling and arguing could have been prevented had all your facts and opinions been structured more like this one.
Now, based on this post, I actually have a legitimate sound stage question for you. You already know a fair bit about my install, let's not get into how much you disagree with what I've done thus far. It is what it is, and I'm very happy with the result with one caveat: I'd like to move the sound stage up a bit without TOO MUCH effort. Above, you suggest supertweets in the vents. Can you elaborate? Mount position, angle? I was leaning towards a pair of supertweets as well, or just to add a center speaker. Keep in mind that I never had a center speaker, it's not like I removed it. I haven't taken the grill of to find out what the deal is, whether the speaker was removed, blown, etc. If I end up going with a pair of supertweets, I had initially thought of mounting them in the top corners of the windshield pointing towards the windshield itself, ala CDT upstage style. I know there are many people that have utilized this design, and it has its own benefits and drawbacks. I'm just not sure if I would want the headache of trying to equalize the windshield reflections, etc. However, I see other potential problems by mounting them in the vents, depending on what you had in mind with the install.
I know the easiest answer would be to just buy the supertweets and experiment with placement, which is what I'll probably do, but I wanted your take on it.
Olive branch.
Now, based on this post, I actually have a legitimate sound stage question for you. You already know a fair bit about my install, let's not get into how much you disagree with what I've done thus far. It is what it is, and I'm very happy with the result with one caveat: I'd like to move the sound stage up a bit without TOO MUCH effort. Above, you suggest supertweets in the vents. Can you elaborate? Mount position, angle? I was leaning towards a pair of supertweets as well, or just to add a center speaker. Keep in mind that I never had a center speaker, it's not like I removed it. I haven't taken the grill of to find out what the deal is, whether the speaker was removed, blown, etc. If I end up going with a pair of supertweets, I had initially thought of mounting them in the top corners of the windshield pointing towards the windshield itself, ala CDT upstage style. I know there are many people that have utilized this design, and it has its own benefits and drawbacks. I'm just not sure if I would want the headache of trying to equalize the windshield reflections, etc. However, I see other potential problems by mounting them in the vents, depending on what you had in mind with the install.
I know the easiest answer would be to just buy the supertweets and experiment with placement, which is what I'll probably do, but I wanted your take on it.
Olive branch.
I think I am gonna hit some sanding blocks before rain comes
You are all witnesses, I really, really tried with this guy. I actually had a legitimate sound stage question, and he could provide no response except the one above. So much for his "knowledge"... What an a$$bag. He just keeps preaching his theoretical bs without providing any actual rebuttal to a single counterpoint anyone has made, muchless when I ask him a question in his supposed area of expertise... Of course, I'm sure he'll bounce back and say "none of the counterpoints provided are worth addressing" or some similar lame *** excuse to hide behind in order to avoid providing any ACTUAL knowledge on the subject. He's already done it countless times and I don't see this changing.
It has been fun keeping this thread going long enough to discredit "odd Peter" beyond a shadow of a doubt. Actually, "long enough to let him discredit himself" would be more accurate. Of course this thread is just another to add to the list.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,504
Likes: 2
From: Sacramento California
Everyone on here wants you to shut your overly opinionated mouth for the most part. I actually ASK for your opinion on something DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE SUBJECT, and it's the ONE TIME you can't give it... You crack me up. Thanks for proving how fake you really are. I can't say I'm surprised.
You are all witnesses, I really, really tried with this guy. I actually had a legitimate sound stage question, and he could provide no response except the one above. So much for his "knowledge"... What an a$$bag. He just keeps preaching his theoretical bs without providing any actual rebuttal to a single counterpoint anyone has made, muchless when I ask him a question in his supposed area of expertise... Of course, I'm sure he'll bounce back and say "none of the counterpoints provided are worth addressing" or some similar lame *** excuse to hide behind in order to avoid providing any ACTUAL knowledge on the subject. He's already done it countless times and I don't see this changing.
It has been fun keeping this thread going long enough to discredit "odd Peter" beyond a shadow of a doubt. Actually, "long enough to let him discredit himself" would be more accurate. Of course this thread is just another to add to the list.
You are all witnesses, I really, really tried with this guy. I actually had a legitimate sound stage question, and he could provide no response except the one above. So much for his "knowledge"... What an a$$bag. He just keeps preaching his theoretical bs without providing any actual rebuttal to a single counterpoint anyone has made, muchless when I ask him a question in his supposed area of expertise... Of course, I'm sure he'll bounce back and say "none of the counterpoints provided are worth addressing" or some similar lame *** excuse to hide behind in order to avoid providing any ACTUAL knowledge on the subject. He's already done it countless times and I don't see this changing.
It has been fun keeping this thread going long enough to discredit "odd Peter" beyond a shadow of a doubt. Actually, "long enough to let him discredit himself" would be more accurate. Of course this thread is just another to add to the list.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,504
Likes: 2
From: Sacramento California
Pro
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
From: El Paso TX
You come across like a whiny little #$%%! Which part of me being busy don't you understand? I have to finish blocking my parts before my painter picks them up or are you going to do it while I type a response to your questions? Check for some basic stuff like phase, cancellations and PLD related to your car's reflective surfaces, mainly side windows. Easy to find out, start listening with windows up and down and observe how things change. Seeing what you have, they will change a lot and as long as you have the tweeters in the doors, you can do very little. Now, I have to go with my dogs for couple of hours and will be back, if you want some help or opinions, change your bipolar demeanor.
If you initially intended to answer my question, why did you jump into the forum, throw a jab, then jump back out?semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING, semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING... you're as bi-polar as anyone.
I'll legitimately thank you for your response, though you honestly didn't actually answer most of my question which was asking about your supertweeter idea, and your thoughts on other potential mounting locations vs using a center speaker.
I'm finally done with this one, have fun everyone.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
I just love how you are SOOOO busy, yet you have time to reply to my question initially with another "peter-like" comment. Then, after my reply, you jump back with an answer. Did you HONESTLY not expect a negative comment from me after your initial reply? Come on, man. If you initially intended to answer my question, why did you jump into the forum, throw a jab, then jump back out?
semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING, semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING... you're as bi-polar as anyone.
I'll legitimately thank you for your response, though you honestly didn't actually answer most of my question which was asking about your supertweeter idea, and your thoughts on other potential mounting locations vs using a center speaker.
I'm finally done with this one, have fun everyone.
If you initially intended to answer my question, why did you jump into the forum, throw a jab, then jump back out?semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING, semi-objective opinion, SUPER BASHING... you're as bi-polar as anyone.
I'll legitimately thank you for your response, though you honestly didn't actually answer most of my question which was asking about your supertweeter idea, and your thoughts on other potential mounting locations vs using a center speaker.
I'm finally done with this one, have fun everyone.