Journal bearings should have nothing to do with it, we push 30+ psi all day long on on journal bearings. If the thrust bearing failed, it was one of two reasons. Compressor surge, or overspun shaft. Overspun shaft happens if you have a sever boost leak somewhere, so probably not likely. Compressor surge generally happens in one of two places. Either the turbos are too big and trying to push too much air. This is generally only seen at part throttle going up a hill, the turbos are passing too much air for too little boost. Or the most common is the BOV. I strongly suggest you check that. From what we've seen lately a great deal of manufactures (including Tial) are putting too large of a spring in the BOV. The sping tension should be just enough to overcome the vacuum at idle, nothing more. Many people think larger springs are needed for larger boost, but this is not the case. If you look at the design of the BOV there's always boost pressure on bottom, and with an equal or larger diaphram on top boost pressure + spring pressure. That's saying Boost + Spring > Boost, so no matter the boost pressure, the valve should always stay closed. If you pull off the BOV and have a hard time pressing it open, it's too tight. Cut the spring or replace it with a softer one. Nick, you probably won't have a hard time pressing it open, but try giving it to one of us meir mortals without the super human muscles! I'm betting that's your problem, and if it is, BB or not, it will destroy the new turbos too, just the more expensive ones!

CK

 

^^ Good info above^^

I'm guessing that was max effort. Anything else involved in that party? C16, NOS?

 

Based on the compressor map, I plotted a few lines that really drive home what I have experienced with these.

Red Line = 11psi; ~550 rwhp
Green Line = 14psi; ~625 rwhp
Blue Line = 18 psi; ~800??

Car ran well at 11 psi but always seemed like it needed more. Apparently the wheel was only spinning about 50k rpm (Supercharger territory).

It felt much better at 14psi (Green Line) and based on one datalog at 17 psi, it is really beginning to shine. The Blue Line is where I am headed. Based on the map, I may even push them beyond that.

 

How did you get the the lb/min for your given power levels? Just rough estimates?

 

All the Houston posters in this thread should shoot me a PM in the next 48 hours or so. The math going on here is good stuff, and i may be able to offer some local guys a great chance to make use of it. Get in touch with me if ya'll are interested guys!

 

Like I said in the beginning of the thread, a good SWAG is 10#/min per 100 HP, although it seems to be more like RWHP.

 

OK Ben, you just made my day. I just took the only "57" map off Turbonetics site and thought is was mine/ours. This one looks MUCH BETTER! This I can work with. I could not for the life of me figure out how Vince and Chris were performing like they were with "standard TTIX small turbos" if they were using that map I found. This explains a lot. Goes to my earlier point that I wish turbo manufacturers were more forthcoming about their specs.

 

Here, Turbonetics stopped posting (or hasn't finished updating) their stuff a while back. But these are from another site, found it by typo, instead of turboneticsinc.com just turbonetics.com:

http://turbocharged.com/main.htm
For compressor maps,

Also for turbo sizing, click Catalog, turbochargers and accessories, compressor wheels and housings. (sry, it's flash, no direct link)

And for automated plotting of compressor maps:
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

As far as the Lb/min, it's a rough estimate, and there is some fudge room in there. 10# per 100hp has been a general rule for quite a while, but with the advent of E85, we're starting to see better results. But for baseline #"s it works well.

As far as the 550whp, that was of course E85, ~24psi, no nitrous, on a honda. If you play with the link above, look how altitude effects the outcome as well. So some turbos are better suited for sealevel, where as others the efficency improves with altitude.

If you really want to go in depth, dyno your car N/A (or find one similar, cam/heads/cid) and you can reverse calculate the VE based off RPM/HP/lbs-min. This will give you a semi usable VE curve that you can plot more thoroughly, at each individual RPM and compare against the comp maps. Now of course other factors play into it, but for baselining a comp map/turbo, this will get you really close.


CK

 

I donno about you guys but I've gotten a lot out of this thread.

I still don't see why turbo manufacturers are so secretive. How am I supposed to know that my "Turbonetics 57" is the T04B H-3? I guess it's marketing but if turbo specs were listed like cam specs it would make it a lot easier! Those in the know could spec out a cheap turbo that will perform well in their setup. Hey wait, I know someone who did that....







UPP

 

Holy crap, that lists Turbonetics part numbers and Garrett equivalent part #'s for exhaust housings! That kind of info is unheard of in the turbo world. Again, a lot gleamed from this thread.

 

You think turbo manufacuters are secretive, I've never seen a supercharger comp map (besides Eaton). And the compressors on those should be relatively the same...

Now you keep saying Turbonetics 57, where did that come from?

Let me run you through some of their nomenclature: T3 and T4 are housing sizes, T3/T4 is a hybrid with a T3 turbine and a T4 compressor. T04B and T04E are compressor housings, The 'E' is larger in diameter, but appears skinnier. The 'B' is shorter and fatter. (I'll post pics tomorrow if I get a chance, as we have both in stock). The 'E' appears to be a bigger frame, but the 'B' flows more (generally), as the wheel size inside is bigger. And lastly are the trims, which are a size of the compressor inducer/exducer themselves.

Also I was wrong earlier, turbonetics does have their stuff posted finally, it's just burried a bit you have to look for it,

http://74.208.101.201/forum/tech-sup....html#post5821

http://turboneticsinc.com/content/compressor-maps


What I find amazing stiill is all the crap I got when I introduced this kit....come to find out, we're using the exact turbos that TTix is! LOL


CK

 

ck...pm sent

 

Bill like we have talked extensively, just bolt on .82 housings on those puppies. You will be very happy. Turbo-Geist is almost spot on.

 

Let me know when you want an extra hand. I'm out of town but will be home on Saturday. I don't work start work until the 9th, so I'm always willing to lend a hand in anyway, even if it is just running parts.

Hope you can pencil in 2 hours on the 6th to watch your old kit run 9's banging gears.

 

In the end you hardly ever see anyone making the advertised hp rating for their turbos. There is usually some inefficiency in the piping, intercooler, fueling, or engine. My precision 6265's coming in will be rated at 700hp each. No way I am going to see 1400bhp.

 

Bill,

Before you order a new turbine housing, wait and check the ones that you are getting. I went back and searched the part number on my housing. (20359-05) Based on the chart below, it is already a 0.82 A/R.

 

Yeah, just rough estimates based on the 10#/min rule of thumb. I wouldn't say my plots are dead accurate, but they are in the ballpark and verify the huge jump in airflow that I saw when I went from 11 psi to 17 psi. I was barely spinning the turbine wheel at 11 psi.

Don't worry, I'm going to let your LS6 push them for all they're worth.

 

Yea, they don't even make a .62; .63 and .82. We'll see, I am waiting to lay my hands on them and verify everything before I do anything. With the links CK posted I'll be able to 100% identify everything about them. I know now I would need to identify what stage turbine wheel/housing I have in order to get a matching stage turbine housing if I do need to go larger anyway.

 

Ben off topic but how is that manual boost controller working out for you? 17 psi? I like that!

 

Nouman,

The boost controller is working great. Thanks for sending it my way.

17 psi (10 turns) was accidental and felt great, but it shut the car down (REP mode) at 5200 rpm due to the 2.32 g/cyl limit. I was able to tune around it, but in the interest of keeping the engine together I dialed it back to 14 psi. I'm looking forward to turning it back up soon.