B&B Headers.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
any results from the b&b headers ?
imo, the collectors are too short but i'm still interested in the results.
it doesn't matter to me if it's tuned or not i'm just interested in the results.
imo, the collectors are too short but i'm still interested in the results.
it doesn't matter to me if it's tuned or not i'm just interested in the results.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: az
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: az
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,895
Likes: 0
From: Monterey California
Im installing them myself.. but the weather has just been to nice to bother.. sorry for teasing, but I was here instead of on the garage floor lol Im really intrested to feel the results.. Its funny that the whole purpose of the crazy collector on the other headers is to increase low end tq... yet it uses and x pipe which decreases low end tq? The PRT is an H pipe and may pick up 5ft/lbs over an X design mid section by staying stock.
Last edited by bdking57; Mar 6, 2007 at 04:55 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,895
Likes: 0
From: Monterey California
Im not sure why your bothering with the de screening. The screen is there for several purposes.. and fake gain you could trick the ECU into making by fiddling with the MAF can easily be had with a proper dyno tune. Your opening your car up for problems by removing it.
nothing yet, since nov i have been aborting just about every single run thanks to wheel hops. i hate these run craps in cold weather. i will run them back to back when the temp gets a little warmer unless i find someone that will be doing a dyno, i will just have them make a extra run with the screen less maf. this may not be a very valid test since it could lean it out a little at first until ltft catch up.
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Drifting
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,746
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From: Upper St. Clair PA
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'09
I have the Route 66/X-pipe, and am very interested in this thread. I'll look forward to the verdict here. 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,047
Likes: 887
From: Tampa Florida
Ill definately be getting a tune to turn off the rear 02s. The tune is the best mod you could get, so I dont know why anyone wouldnt get a tune as you can yield 15whp on just that alone on a stock motor. If its a concern, a mail order tune for $175 should do the trick of turning off the sensors.. worst case scenario is just ride around with a cell on.
Part of the reason people are gaining large numbers with just adding headers is that its leaning out your fueling.. leaning out the car on top and making more power doesnt actually mean the headers are that much more effecient.. a tune on a stock motor would have netted you 15whp for example, but after LGs.. you leaned out the fueling so much you may only now pick up 5whp off of a tune because you are already running leaner... so if a stock motor with just a tune can make 365whp, that should be considered optimal for the stock setup.. so If you gained 26whp from just headers you should be at 391whp/400+ tq with just header correct? Its strange we are not seeing more 400whp cars if the headers are really that effecient as it would only take the addition of an intake. A big portion of the gains are definately from moving to larger highflow cats.. looks how tiny the stock ones are. So If you replaced these collectors with random tech cats, and tuned the car. I wouldnt doubt 375whp was possible without headers.
If you want to test this, go have your car tuned, then add headers... I bet power will end up being lost due to all the pulled timing due to detonation.
Im not trying to stir anything up here.. there is just other routes to receive similiar results, and if they end up being cheaper too then thats just a plus.
I mentioned previously this would only work as a catless system, which really isnt that bad unless you are daily driving your car. Catless will sound better, make more power.. just stinks a little but varies on what type of gas you are using(some smell worse then others!) I only drive the vette 40 miles a week so not a big deal for me.
let me diagram this out..
stock h pipe................................coll ector/cats
--------------------------------- -----------
BB x pipes..................................h eader
--------------------------------- ------------
now the front portion of the prt x pipe is made with different material then the rear... would be pretty easy to add cats.. and I thought most were a slip fit so it might just need to be cut in order to fit the pipe (not welded).. Ill add those at a later time.
other header x pipes
xpipe....................cats of TPs............header
-------------------- ------ --------------------
Part of the reason people are gaining large numbers with just adding headers is that its leaning out your fueling.. leaning out the car on top and making more power doesnt actually mean the headers are that much more effecient.. a tune on a stock motor would have netted you 15whp for example, but after LGs.. you leaned out the fueling so much you may only now pick up 5whp off of a tune because you are already running leaner... so if a stock motor with just a tune can make 365whp, that should be considered optimal for the stock setup.. so If you gained 26whp from just headers you should be at 391whp/400+ tq with just header correct? Its strange we are not seeing more 400whp cars if the headers are really that effecient as it would only take the addition of an intake. A big portion of the gains are definately from moving to larger highflow cats.. looks how tiny the stock ones are. So If you replaced these collectors with random tech cats, and tuned the car. I wouldnt doubt 375whp was possible without headers.
If you want to test this, go have your car tuned, then add headers... I bet power will end up being lost due to all the pulled timing due to detonation.
Im not trying to stir anything up here.. there is just other routes to receive similiar results, and if they end up being cheaper too then thats just a plus.
I mentioned previously this would only work as a catless system, which really isnt that bad unless you are daily driving your car. Catless will sound better, make more power.. just stinks a little but varies on what type of gas you are using(some smell worse then others!) I only drive the vette 40 miles a week so not a big deal for me.
let me diagram this out..
stock h pipe................................coll ector/cats
--------------------------------- -----------
BB x pipes..................................h eader
--------------------------------- ------------
now the front portion of the prt x pipe is made with different material then the rear... would be pretty easy to add cats.. and I thought most were a slip fit so it might just need to be cut in order to fit the pipe (not welded).. Ill add those at a later time.
other header x pipes
xpipe....................cats of TPs............header
-------------------- ------ --------------------
You have a very good point and so is your write up. My thoughts about gaining power without spending unnecessary funds are about the same as yours. I just checked with one of my mechanics today and he told me that he dyno tuned a customers C6 Z51 MN6 with LG headers only and picked up only 17 rwhp. Actual results were 378 rwhp from the 351 stock form. Now I may sound very different from normal but I was thinking about doing the FAST intake and the Magnaflow catback system which would probably produce the same or more hp than the headers. The FAST is claiming between 15-20rwhp and Magnaflow is claiming between 10-15rwhp. I saw the dyno sheet for the Magnaflow exhaust system. One customer made 17rwhp just bolt-on. So it seems like at the minimum, you should obtain at least 25rwhp from your baseline with a tune. A forum member also mentioned something similar to this but no one took heed. I may be the first to do this combo mod. I already have the VARARAM. Maybe someone could chime in and help me out a little on my intentions. Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
bdking57,
You have a very good point and so is your write up. My thoughts about gaining power without spending unnecessary funds are about the same as yours. I just checked with one of my mechanics today and he told me that he dyno tuned a customers C6 Z51 MN6 with LG headers only and picked up only 17 rwhp. Actual results were 378 rwhp from the 351 stock form. ....
You have a very good point and so is your write up. My thoughts about gaining power without spending unnecessary funds are about the same as yours. I just checked with one of my mechanics today and he told me that he dyno tuned a customers C6 Z51 MN6 with LG headers only and picked up only 17 rwhp. Actual results were 378 rwhp from the 351 stock form. ....
However, I believe that going from 351 hp stock to 378 works out to a 27 horsepower gain as opposed to 17 horsepower gain.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Uh, my math skills occasionally suffer from habitual use of calculators and such (as well as old age). As a whole, we have become a lazy society when it comes to math. We have become lax and I am guilty of it too.
However, I believe that going from 351 hp stock to 378 works out to a 27 horsepower gain as opposed to 17 horsepower gain.
However, I believe that going from 351 hp stock to 378 works out to a 27 horsepower gain as opposed to 17 horsepower gain.
I happen to agree with DSOM when it comes to mods, do not skimp. The problem with economizing on mods is it's expensive to undo. Let's say you have $1800 to spend and you can get less expensive headers, a ported intake, and the LPE inlet and you pick up 27 rwhp. Or you could buy the LG's for $1800 and pick up 27 rwhp. You both spent the same and picked up the same power. Now, fast forward to the future and you want to go faster. The person that went with the LG's can now add the ported intake and the LPE inlet and pick up another 10 hp. The guy with the less expensive headers has to take them off, try to sell them, then buy the LG's (or Kooks, or AMR's, or Melrose).
Now, if all you had was $1200 to begin with, then by all means, get the less expensive headers. But if you had $1800, then it's false economy.
With all that, I'm betting that the B&B headers are not that bad and you will pick up close to what the LG's would have done.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,047
Likes: 887
From: Tampa Florida
Uh, my math skills occasionally suffer from habitual use of calculators and such (as well as old age). As a whole, we have become a lazy society when it comes to math. We have become lax and I am guilty of it too.
However, I believe that going from 351 hp stock to 378 works out to a 27 horsepower gain as opposed to 17 horsepower gain.
However, I believe that going from 351 hp stock to 378 works out to a 27 horsepower gain as opposed to 17 horsepower gain.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
DSOM, good catch. I was wondering if those set of LG's had come from Idaho and there were potatoes in each primary.
I happen to agree with DSOM when it comes to mods, do not skimp. The problem with economizing on mods is it's expensive to undo. Let's say you have $1800 to spend and you can get less expensive headers, a ported intake, and the LPE inlet and you pick up 27 rwhp. Or you could buy the LG's for $1800 and pick up 27 rwhp. You both spent the same and picked up the same power. Now, fast forward to the future and you want to go faster. The person that went with the LG's can now add the ported intake and the LPE inlet and pick up another 10 hp. The guy with the less expensive headers has to take them off, try to sell them, then buy the LG's (or Kooks, or AMR's, or Melrose).
Now, if all you had was $1200 to begin with, then by all means, get the less expensive headers. But if you had $1800, then it's false economy.
With all that, I'm betting that the B&B headers are not that bad and you will pick up close to what the LG's would have done.
I happen to agree with DSOM when it comes to mods, do not skimp. The problem with economizing on mods is it's expensive to undo. Let's say you have $1800 to spend and you can get less expensive headers, a ported intake, and the LPE inlet and you pick up 27 rwhp. Or you could buy the LG's for $1800 and pick up 27 rwhp. You both spent the same and picked up the same power. Now, fast forward to the future and you want to go faster. The person that went with the LG's can now add the ported intake and the LPE inlet and pick up another 10 hp. The guy with the less expensive headers has to take them off, try to sell them, then buy the LG's (or Kooks, or AMR's, or Melrose).
Now, if all you had was $1200 to begin with, then by all means, get the less expensive headers. But if you had $1800, then it's false economy.
With all that, I'm betting that the B&B headers are not that bad and you will pick up close to what the LG's would have done.
When it was time to go with a CAI for my C6, it was either the Callaway or the Lingenfelter. Nothing else would do. I wanted the best aftermarket part I could find. If I ever do go with a short throw shifter, it will be a Callaway.
And its also why I decided to go with the LG Pros on my C6 this time as opposed to any others. They cost a little more, about $200.00 more than the others out there. But they can be had for $1795.00.
$200.00 is peanuts in the big picture when you really get down to it. The change I'd have left over from $200.00 after taking my wife out wouldn't by a decent passenger side Z51 badge.
That $1795 gets you the ability to go with or without cats and without having to order another X pipe to do either. It gets you great low to midrange torque, with minimal sacrifice to top end power. And three of my most important attributes, excellent build quality, ease of installation and customer service.
No doubt whatsoever in my mind that when you tally all the pros and cons up, I bought the overall best header available for our cars. I don't have to wonder if I did.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Mar 6, 2007 at 11:04 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,430
Likes: 81
From: Whidbey Island WA
Dont buy into the hype on a vendors webpage. Since the first cat back came out for these cars people have been getting somewhere between nothing and very little on real world cars driven by us. I have seen a couple runs that showed a loss. All the exhaust guys (B&B, Borla, Corsa, etc.) claim similar gains and with the same lack of results on real world cars. This has been proven over and over and over. Save your pennies unless you want the sound. The stock muffs do not represent a restriction at the stock power.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,895
Likes: 0
From: Monterey California
Dont buy into the hype on a vendors webpage. Since the first cat back came out for these cars people have been getting somewhere between nothing and very little on real world cars driven by us. I have seen a couple runs that showed a loss. All the exhaust guys (B&B, Borla, Corsa, etc.) claim similar gains and with the same lack of results on real world cars. This has been proven over and over and over. Save your pennies unless you want the sound. The stock muffs do not represent a restriction at the stock power.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
Whats 10hp going to work out to at the rear wheels? Very close to the error among various dynos.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Mar 7, 2007 at 04:55 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: az
this would be your opinion. there is nothing about faking anything, only removing a blockage in your intake track. only a consistant driver / car or dyno runs can validate if the blockage is worth any hp and settle the dispute on both sides.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,047
Likes: 887
From: Tampa Florida
Dont buy into the hype on a vendors webpage. Since the first cat back came out for these cars people have been getting somewhere between nothing and very little on real world cars driven by us. I have seen a couple runs that showed a loss. All the exhaust guys (B&B, Borla, Corsa, etc.) claim similar gains and with the same lack of results on real world cars. This has been proven over and over and over. Save your pennies unless you want the sound. The stock muffs do not represent a restriction at the stock power.
Last edited by Fore58; Mar 7, 2007 at 06:49 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,895
Likes: 0
From: Monterey California
I dont think anyone in here is really trying to break the mold to much. Its common knowledge that If you want the best engineered headers your going to pick up kooks or LGs, however Im sure there is a certain point in which a header like that will help you more then a simplier cost effective design (B&B) when combined with other mods (like heads and a Cam)