Do Octane Additives Really Work ?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 28,753
Likes: 9
From: San Jose/Bear Valley CA
CA Events Coordinator
I don't make any money off of promoting torco.... torco costs me money. 
What I'm doing is sharing my experiences about a product that does work. 
Team Owner
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 26,900
Likes: 2
From: Bann Camp & N.Y.C.
St. Jude Donor '08
YEP, i put one bottle of that stuff in my tank. Its a cool 58 degrees in PA today and the car did not perform any better. It may have slowed it down even. I installed a 160 stat today. No better. Thats the last time my car will see that stuff. For $9.00 a bottle its a real rip.
Your the first to share info on that stuff ( lucas as pictured in the post ). Those guys are promoting torco, maybe it works but no
additives for this guy.
Your the first to share info on that stuff ( lucas as pictured in the post ). Those guys are promoting torco, maybe it works but no
additives for this guy.
the gas does burn slower!!!, word of advice, once you go thru the tank of gas, disconnect the battery and wait like 5 min and reconnect. this will clear the tables the comp set (with the addative) to run the car!!!,.......I put 3!!! so can you imgine and to makes things worse I've been taunding my guys that Im going to whip them at the track! and I get OWNED
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,221
Likes: 899
From: CA
2017 C5 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '08
FWIW, spark plugs are cheap... O2 sensors for 97-04 Corvettes are now sold at pep boys for cheap and have a lifetime warranty.
If you truly have a need for Torco to make big horsepower. These little things like spark plugs or replacing O2 sensors are not a big concern. FWIW, I have been using Torco for years and the only time I needed to replace the O2 sensors was after my last motor blew up and "flushed" coolant down my exhaust system. I've had the same spark plugs in my car for over a year without any problems. The set I had in before stayed in for almost 2 years as well.
If you truly have a need for Torco to make big horsepower. These little things like spark plugs or replacing O2 sensors are not a big concern. FWIW, I have been using Torco for years and the only time I needed to replace the O2 sensors was after my last motor blew up and "flushed" coolant down my exhaust system.
I've had the same spark plugs in my car for over a year without any problems. The set I had in before stayed in for almost 2 years as well.
I too have run Torco in my 98 for over 5 years, with no ill effects. I don't change my plugs or o2s with any more regularity then one would on any hipo car... I've also never gotten an engine light from using Torco. I also now run it in my 08, and believe we made some of the biggest HP #s for just intake, headers and exaust:455 RWHP!!Do I sell it on the side??
Does it represent more then 1% of my yearly income? NO, I just share it with others at a very reasonable price. It's just one way of effectively raising your octane, if that's what your after.
For what it's worth, I've seen the inside of MANY MANY motors that did not use torco or mix in 100 octane with big HP applications. Let's just say it was not pretty!!!! KABOOM
JB
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Higher octane does not translate into more power. A car is tuned to run on a specific octane rating. Using a lower octane gas means less power, but higher octane does nothing.
The tune sets when the spark plug fires before TDC, the closer to TDC the spark fires, the more power you get. Higher octane gas allows you to set the spark closer to TDC. The engine does not have a fuel analyzer to figure out the octane of the gas, so it can't move the spark advance forward. The engine can detect when you have gas that has a lower octane rating than it is tuned for via the knock sensor. Knock happens when the fuel spontaneously combusts (due to pressure and heat) BEFORE the spark plug fires. The engine detects the knock and fires the spark plug sooner, resulting in less power. The higher the octane the less likely it will spontaneously combust. Using fuel additives to raise the octane is a waste unless you have tuned the car to use that higher octane gas.
The tune sets when the spark plug fires before TDC, the closer to TDC the spark fires, the more power you get. Higher octane gas allows you to set the spark closer to TDC. The engine does not have a fuel analyzer to figure out the octane of the gas, so it can't move the spark advance forward. The engine can detect when you have gas that has a lower octane rating than it is tuned for via the knock sensor. Knock happens when the fuel spontaneously combusts (due to pressure and heat) BEFORE the spark plug fires. The engine detects the knock and fires the spark plug sooner, resulting in less power. The higher the octane the less likely it will spontaneously combust. Using fuel additives to raise the octane is a waste unless you have tuned the car to use that higher octane gas.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,259
Likes: 16
From: Monroe Township New Jersey
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
St. Jude donor in memory of jpee '14
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 3
From: READING PA
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
ACTUALLY I GOT SOME KR THAT LOGGED ON MY PREDATOR DURING
TESTING OF THE LUCAS PRODUCT. Im going to finish off the tank and
start all over with 93 OCTANE.
TESTING OF THE LUCAS PRODUCT. Im going to finish off the tank and
start all over with 93 OCTANE.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,259
Likes: 16
From: Monroe Township New Jersey
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
St. Jude donor in memory of jpee '14
was that with the stock timing table ?
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
Likes: 406
From: Florida
With all due respect, I see an engine that leaned out under boost and was overrevved on top of that. I don't think the Torco caused the dented pistons and bent valves in your pictures. There is also serious cylinder wall scoring, indicating oiling issues.
Aside from AZ 91 Octane, this is the only culprit for a sub 30k mile engine. I would never use the stuff...
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
As promised, I did some dyno testing yesterday with Torco.
First, my car is a 2006 A6, has LG headers & catted x-pipe, Vararam CAI, a Lingenfelter 160 thermo, and computer tuning by Chuck at Corvettes of Westchester. At the track, it has turned a 12.65 @ 113.5 MPH w/ a 1.95 second short time, on the OEM runflats.
The dyno pulls were done on a Mustang dyno at F-Body Central in Baltimore, MD. Their dyno is calibrated very conservatively, reads a bit lower than some other dynos in the area.
We did two baseline pulls, one in 3rd gear, one in 4th, then added one bottle of Torco to a half-tank of Shell 93 octane, & did another 4th gear pull. There was 2-3 degrees of KR on the first 4th gear pull. I let the car idle for several minutes, revving to 2500 occasionally, to make sure that the Torco/gas mix made its way to the engine.
Results were: absolutely no change whatsoever. With the Torco, there was a little less KR, but not much. This tells me that the knock sensors were not detecting much preignition, they were picking up vibrations and noise from the dyno --- very common.
We also noticed that the A/F mix was quite lean at almost 13.9:1. Advance was fairly modest, around 22 degrees. Measurement was done with a wideband sensor on a standalone bung welded in front of the cats.
My tuner Brett decided to try running a little richer mix, around 12.8:1, with a little more advance. This also resulted in almost no change to the TQ curve or peak numbers whatsoever. In my opinion, this is reflective of the two disparate tuning approaches used by Chuck at CoW, who does not use a dyno, and Brett, who does. Even with the A/F ratio quite lean by some standards, the car performed very well on the street and at the track, with great driveability, power, and no pinging at all. The dyno tune is much richer, has more advance, but got the exact same results, and drives the same as before.
I think this is a credit to the sophistication of the engine management controls built into the ECM. A slight bit of KR at WOT is OK if you end up with the same amount of power.
Surprisingly, I got slightly better gas mileage driving home (all freeway driving) after the tune. Stop & go driving might be a different story, though.
For those of you interested in the actual numbers, the baseline in the 3rd gear pull was 341.6 HP, 337 TQ. The baseline 4th gear pull was 351.2 HP, 348 TQ. WIth the Torco and the revised tuning, we picked up 1 HP, no TQ. The TQ curves were almost identical in every pull.
The actual numbers don't really mean that much, they're just useful for tuning. I have had the car dynoed before at a different local shop (also a Mustang dyno), and the numbers were about 10 HP/TQ higher. The track results are probably a better indicator of the actual power to the ground.
First, my car is a 2006 A6, has LG headers & catted x-pipe, Vararam CAI, a Lingenfelter 160 thermo, and computer tuning by Chuck at Corvettes of Westchester. At the track, it has turned a 12.65 @ 113.5 MPH w/ a 1.95 second short time, on the OEM runflats.
The dyno pulls were done on a Mustang dyno at F-Body Central in Baltimore, MD. Their dyno is calibrated very conservatively, reads a bit lower than some other dynos in the area.
We did two baseline pulls, one in 3rd gear, one in 4th, then added one bottle of Torco to a half-tank of Shell 93 octane, & did another 4th gear pull. There was 2-3 degrees of KR on the first 4th gear pull. I let the car idle for several minutes, revving to 2500 occasionally, to make sure that the Torco/gas mix made its way to the engine.
Results were: absolutely no change whatsoever. With the Torco, there was a little less KR, but not much. This tells me that the knock sensors were not detecting much preignition, they were picking up vibrations and noise from the dyno --- very common.
We also noticed that the A/F mix was quite lean at almost 13.9:1. Advance was fairly modest, around 22 degrees. Measurement was done with a wideband sensor on a standalone bung welded in front of the cats.
My tuner Brett decided to try running a little richer mix, around 12.8:1, with a little more advance. This also resulted in almost no change to the TQ curve or peak numbers whatsoever. In my opinion, this is reflective of the two disparate tuning approaches used by Chuck at CoW, who does not use a dyno, and Brett, who does. Even with the A/F ratio quite lean by some standards, the car performed very well on the street and at the track, with great driveability, power, and no pinging at all. The dyno tune is much richer, has more advance, but got the exact same results, and drives the same as before.
I think this is a credit to the sophistication of the engine management controls built into the ECM. A slight bit of KR at WOT is OK if you end up with the same amount of power.
Surprisingly, I got slightly better gas mileage driving home (all freeway driving) after the tune. Stop & go driving might be a different story, though.
For those of you interested in the actual numbers, the baseline in the 3rd gear pull was 341.6 HP, 337 TQ. The baseline 4th gear pull was 351.2 HP, 348 TQ. WIth the Torco and the revised tuning, we picked up 1 HP, no TQ. The TQ curves were almost identical in every pull.
The actual numbers don't really mean that much, they're just useful for tuning. I have had the car dynoed before at a different local shop (also a Mustang dyno), and the numbers were about 10 HP/TQ higher. The track results are probably a better indicator of the actual power to the ground.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 898
Likes: 148
From: SE NY and SE FL
The difference in tuning styles that you are pointing out makes sense. Chucks style appears to be staying away from the potential of detonation by using very little additional timing. He is achieving his increase in HP by leaning out the mixture.
The dyno tuner is taking the more conventional approach of using a safer A/F ratio while using the addition of timing to achieve the same overall numbers.
Both appear to be workable approaches in a N/A car without alot of static compression.
In a boosted car, Chuck's method would not be an option. An intercooled / boosted car needs to have an A/F in the high 11's, while a non intercooled car needs to be in the low 11's, especially earlier cars that do not have knock sensors.
Another thing to consider is that when tuning under controlled conditions such as a dyno, a conservative approach is the best aproach. Many, many a car has come off the dyno on a cool spring day making great numbers and then experienced catastrophic engine failure at the track on a hot and humid summer afternoon.
Find a tuner/shop you (and others) trust and stick with them. I've had the same tuner (Second Street Speed) for 5 years now. He always takes the conservative approach to tuning my cars. The last tuning session with my Red Mustang, we ended up with 724 RWHP but he was not comfortable with the fact that the A/F was in the high 11's (20lbs boost - non intercooled). He backed it down to very low 11's and still achieved 712 RWHP (on Torco BTW). This is a street driven car which is raced 2 - 3 times a year. If this was a car that I competitively raced, we would have been tuning with C12 or C16 and the results would have been substantially different.
The dyno tuner is taking the more conventional approach of using a safer A/F ratio while using the addition of timing to achieve the same overall numbers.
Both appear to be workable approaches in a N/A car without alot of static compression.
In a boosted car, Chuck's method would not be an option. An intercooled / boosted car needs to have an A/F in the high 11's, while a non intercooled car needs to be in the low 11's, especially earlier cars that do not have knock sensors.
Another thing to consider is that when tuning under controlled conditions such as a dyno, a conservative approach is the best aproach. Many, many a car has come off the dyno on a cool spring day making great numbers and then experienced catastrophic engine failure at the track on a hot and humid summer afternoon.
Find a tuner/shop you (and others) trust and stick with them. I've had the same tuner (Second Street Speed) for 5 years now. He always takes the conservative approach to tuning my cars. The last tuning session with my Red Mustang, we ended up with 724 RWHP but he was not comfortable with the fact that the A/F was in the high 11's (20lbs boost - non intercooled). He backed it down to very low 11's and still achieved 712 RWHP (on Torco BTW). This is a street driven car which is raced 2 - 3 times a year. If this was a car that I competitively raced, we would have been tuning with C12 or C16 and the results would have been substantially different.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,018
Likes: 9
From: S.V. AZ
I use Octanium in my car. This stuff works! 93-100 octane is a pretty good gain for the price. Here's a link. I have to run crappy 91 Octane. I dump a bottle of this in my car on a hot day and I don't have to worrie about pinging no matter how hard I get on the car.
http://www.motorsporttech.com/c6_accessories01.asp
http://www.motorsporttech.com/c6_accessories01.asp
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,221
Likes: 899
From: CA
2017 C5 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '08
I use Octanium in my car. This stuff works! 93-100 octane is a pretty good gain for the price. Here's a link. I have to run crappy 91 Octane. I dump a bottle of this in my car on a hot day and I don't have to worrie about pinging no matter how hard I get on the car.
http://www.motorsporttech.com/c6_accessories01.asp
http://www.motorsporttech.com/c6_accessories01.asp
They have also told some of my costumers that Torco no longer works, and to use their stuff...
Torco has been around for over ten years, and it's prices are lower!
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,221
Likes: 899
From: CA
2017 C5 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '08
With NA cars, if the tune is such that higher octane will not increase HP, then Torco nor straight 100 will make any difference. This point has been made on this thread many times, and I agree with it.
When Charlie tuned my 08 a few weeks ago, he had to spend alot of time on the dyno to massage the 455 RWHP dyno #s out of the car. A conservative tune set for 93 will not gain any HP by just raiseing octane, or slightly tweaking the tune,
With forced induction, the results are easier to see with higher octane. I've done 100s of pulls on my blown 98, and we could never run the kind of timing we do without some increase in octane. I use 91 octane mixed with Torco, and run 14 #s of boost at 24 degrees of timing with ZERO KR!!!
Thank you for sharing your results, but it just proves the point that others were saying, if the car is not tuned for higher octane, increasing it won't make much of a difference. On the other hand, if you go out and drive the car hard on a hot day, and your tune is close to the edge, having higher octane in the car will help stay off any KR, and help maintan the HP levels.
JB
P.S. If you don't plan on doing any more tuning, and wish to return the unused Torco, I will refund your money, since I run it in both my cars.
Let me know...
When Charlie tuned my 08 a few weeks ago, he had to spend alot of time on the dyno to massage the 455 RWHP dyno #s out of the car. A conservative tune set for 93 will not gain any HP by just raiseing octane, or slightly tweaking the tune,
With forced induction, the results are easier to see with higher octane. I've done 100s of pulls on my blown 98, and we could never run the kind of timing we do without some increase in octane. I use 91 octane mixed with Torco, and run 14 #s of boost at 24 degrees of timing with ZERO KR!!!
Thank you for sharing your results, but it just proves the point that others were saying, if the car is not tuned for higher octane, increasing it won't make much of a difference. On the other hand, if you go out and drive the car hard on a hot day, and your tune is close to the edge, having higher octane in the car will help stay off any KR, and help maintan the HP levels.
JB
P.S. If you don't plan on doing any more tuning, and wish to return the unused Torco, I will refund your money, since I run it in both my cars.
Let me know...
Last edited by jbsblownc5; Oct 18, 2007 at 10:56 AM.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 3
From: READING PA
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Finally emptied my tank when i drove down to gettysburg to get TB &
Manifold porting by Jeremy Formato at Keiths PITSTOP. Car runs great
with a fresh tank of SUNOCO 93. No more additives for me. Hope your car is running great now. You still have to put some manners on those boys. Good luck , LSCHLEM
Manifold porting by Jeremy Formato at Keiths PITSTOP. Car runs great
with a fresh tank of SUNOCO 93. No more additives for me. Hope your car is running great now. You still have to put some manners on those boys. Good luck , LSCHLEM
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
I totally AGREE with Charlie.....
It's my dyno and it is accurate. This car dyno'd 376 stock...that's totally in line with published factory specs and lower than many others reported on this forum.
The mods are a great combination that were chosen to take full advantage of an LS3 and they do just that.
Last, Torco is indeed a viable octane booster used by thousands to enhance octane and fight detonation. In California, where 91 octane reigns, one can of Torco will bring us up to 94....that's 30 points.
The mods are a great combination that were chosen to take full advantage of an LS3 and they do just that.
Last, Torco is indeed a viable octane booster used by thousands to enhance octane and fight detonation. In California, where 91 octane reigns, one can of Torco will bring us up to 94....that's 30 points.
I totally AGREE.... TORCO is the BEST octane booster for a vehicle with cats..... NO QUESTION.
Chuck CoW
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
That's a very generous offer, much appreciated. However, I gave the unused cans of Torco to Jason, the owner of F-Body Central. He tunes and supports many full-tilt racers, several with forced induction, and can probably use it for his customers. I told him that you gave me a good deal, so he may contact you for more.