"The List" & LS2 vs LS3
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Its the BEST color.
Im going to say everyting I like is the best now since I hear subjective views are now performance considerations.
Actually if anyone with a white A4 wants to trade straight up you can have all my mods for free. I dont care whats on your car as long as the paint is mint...not the color, the condition.
Is this a hijack?
Sorry.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
If your car was white, I would trade you.
Its the BEST color.
Im going to say everyting I like is the best now since I hear subjective views are now performance considerations.
Actually if anyone with a white A4 wants to trade straight up you can have all my mods for free. I dont care whats on your car as long as the paint is mint...not the color, the condition.
Is this a hijack?
Sorry.
Its the BEST color.
Im going to say everyting I like is the best now since I hear subjective views are now performance considerations.
Actually if anyone with a white A4 wants to trade straight up you can have all my mods for free. I dont care whats on your car as long as the paint is mint...not the color, the condition.
Is this a hijack?
Sorry.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
Due to the recent concerns voiced on the C6 General forum regarding "list" rules and the possible separation of the LS2 and LS3 posted times, it appears the time has come to have a discussion of opinions.
Hopefully this can be done in a cool-headed civil constructive manner without being heated or flaming.
I'll start with my opinion:
I believe that there are 3 (ZR1 will make it 4) distinct engines that have been offered in the C6 and should be only compared within themselves.
I further believe that minor (read that as bolt-ons) modifications of those engines will produce performance gains in close relationship to what the stock engine produced.
However, I believe that internal or power-adders blur the distinctions beyond reasonable comparison.
I'm not promoting a separate forum for LS2 vs LS3, such as the Z06 has (and the ZR1 will most likely have), just the understanding that there are significant performance differences.
As one last opinion, I'd like to see a separate sticky that spells out the rules in each catagory more specifically than what exists presently.
I understand the list was created as fun thing on an honor system and it has somehow evolved to be taken more seriously by some individuals. I'm kinda guessing for those who understand the fun part, that any changes will not bother them. Although, changes may be necessary to avoid conflicts with the ultra-competitive crowd.
Hopefully this can be done in a cool-headed civil constructive manner without being heated or flaming.
I'll start with my opinion:
I believe that there are 3 (ZR1 will make it 4) distinct engines that have been offered in the C6 and should be only compared within themselves.
I further believe that minor (read that as bolt-ons) modifications of those engines will produce performance gains in close relationship to what the stock engine produced.
However, I believe that internal or power-adders blur the distinctions beyond reasonable comparison.
I'm not promoting a separate forum for LS2 vs LS3, such as the Z06 has (and the ZR1 will most likely have), just the understanding that there are significant performance differences.
As one last opinion, I'd like to see a separate sticky that spells out the rules in each catagory more specifically than what exists presently.
I understand the list was created as fun thing on an honor system and it has somehow evolved to be taken more seriously by some individuals. I'm kinda guessing for those who understand the fun part, that any changes will not bother them. Although, changes may be necessary to avoid conflicts with the ultra-competitive crowd.
Different engine and clearly more powerful in stock form.
However, that said, 385hp C5 Z06s appear on the same list with 2002-2004 Z06s.
But the LS3 based C6 is making up to 36hp more than an LS2 based C6. Pretty soon what you are going to have is a two tiered list if things stay the sam, anyway.
Already you have Dennis at the top of the bolt ons category, followed by 5 other LS3 based C6s. (Actually its 6. SoCalZ06 is waiting to go into the bolt ons category.
Pretty soon you are going to have Dennis followed by 10 or 15 other LS3 based C6s, and it won't be until 12 or 16 places down the bolt ons list before you see another LS2 based C6.
I don't see that being a good thing.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,059
Likes: 366
From: Kendall Park NJ
As long as you guys are contemplating changing your lists, I would like you to to add my C5Z to your showroom stock list since its old and about the same horsepower. And Marc can vouch for me that I'm every bit of 260 lbs. (That will put me at a disadvantage.)
Pro
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 690
Likes: 0
From: VA
I`m voting for seperate list. Dennis it will always be easy enough for someone to look and see that the LS2 bolton cars have the fastest bolt-on car compareed to the LS3`s. People will look at both lists...Lol..
I usedt o be heavy into 1993-2002 Camaro`s and Firebirds and we always, on every board had the LT1`s seperated from the LS1`s as far as top dog lists go. bonestock, bolt-on, power adder ect..
I usedt o be heavy into 1993-2002 Camaro`s and Firebirds and we always, on every board had the LT1`s seperated from the LS1`s as far as top dog lists go. bonestock, bolt-on, power adder ect..
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,436
Likes: 4
From: Everett Wa
I think seperate list would be the way to go. But that does not mean that can't be in the same post. This way we can see what all C6, non Z06 are doing. In addition we can have a 10 ten all out list.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,259
Likes: 16
From: Monroe Township New Jersey
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
St. Jude donor in memory of jpee '14
Hey guys,
We just went through this late last year
and not to cause problems between the LS2 & LS3 guys we kept it together. 
Remember we are ALL Corvette guys & gals!
When the list was first compiled I listed each car with all modifications so that there were cars with similar mods compared together........ the powers that be decided the format should be similar to that of LS1 tech and Nineball changed it for me.
and now some of you want to go back to the original format
With regard to competition.....there is no way I can verify what a member has under their hood, so even thought I request time slips, we have to take an individual upon their honor.
But...... Hey I am always open to suggestions!
Please e-mail or Pm suggestions to me and I'll run them by the moderators before I presesnt anythng to the general membership.
We just went through this late last year
and not to cause problems between the LS2 & LS3 guys we kept it together. Remember we are ALL Corvette guys & gals!
When the list was first compiled I listed each car with all modifications so that there were cars with similar mods compared together........ the powers that be decided the format should be similar to that of LS1 tech and Nineball changed it for me.
and now some of you want to go back to the original format
With regard to competition.....there is no way I can verify what a member has under their hood, so even thought I request time slips, we have to take an individual upon their honor.
But...... Hey I am always open to suggestions!
Please e-mail or Pm suggestions to me and I'll run them by the moderators before I presesnt anythng to the general membership.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
I think a separate list will make sense sometime down the road. But right now there aren't enough LS3s to warrant its own list. Tommy is noting the '08s next to the time, so everyone can already tell which is which.
I'm not very smart, but even I can look at the list right now and tell what the fastest LS2 is and what the fastest LS3 is. But seeing as how it's Tommy's list, and not Schindler's list - I am okay with whatever Tommy winds up doing
I'm not very smart, but even I can look at the list right now and tell what the fastest LS2 is and what the fastest LS3 is. But seeing as how it's Tommy's list, and not Schindler's list - I am okay with whatever Tommy winds up doing
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Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 29,085
Likes: 14
From: Cary IL and Parrish FL
St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
My vote is to leave the lists the way they are. Eventually the LS3s will move on up anyway. Think about it, the LS2 stock list would become totally stale. What if GM introduces direct injection in the LS3 engine, giving it another 15 horses? will there be another split?
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
Showroom Stock
12.40 @ 114.70 - Jschindler - 08 Z51 M6 NPP
12.41 @ 115.38 - HOXXOH - 08 A6 F55 -
12.49 @ 115.54 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 m6
External Engine Modifications (Bolt-Ons)
11.44 @ 119.11 - Theofel - 08 A6 -
11.47 @ 121.93 - Jbsblownc5 - 08 M6 Z51 -
11.56 @ 120.02 - Quicktime - 08 M6 -
11.56 @ 118.82 - MCV - 08 Z51 M6-
11.68 @ 121.22 - Socalz06 - 08 A6
11.70 @ 118.54 - Z51 6spd - 08 Z51 CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (2529)
11.77 @ 121.41 - XStang - 08
11.80 @ 118.62 - 8850 - 08
11.84 @ 121.43 - C6 DVL - 08 Z51 M6
11.99 @ 120.44 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 M6 -
12.03 @ 120.42 - Quikag - 08 Z51 M6 -
You have 14 cars right there. And there are I believe a pair of 12.3s, and a 12.0 as well as that 11.7 have been discussed for inclusion in the bone stock category of an LS 3 list.
You have to start somewhere. JMO but no need to wait until you have 30 cars to start it.
C5 Z06 has been out since 2001. The original thread for their Fast List started 07-09-2005, and currently there are only 16 bone stock cars listed on it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1549325
Its got 26 cars in it's bolt ons category. You all have nearly half that number right now.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Apr 1, 2008 at 10:56 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Well just a question here, but how many are "enough" to warrant an LS3 list? More is not necessarily better.
Showroom Stock
12.40 @ 114.70 - Jschindler - 08 Z51 M6 NPP
12.41 @ 115.38 - HOXXOH - 08 A6 F55 -
12.49 @ 115.54 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 m6
External Engine Modifications (Bolt-Ons)
11.44 @ 119.11 - Theofel - 08 A6 -
11.47 @ 121.93 - Jbsblownc5 - 08 M6 Z51 -
11.56 @ 120.02 - Quicktime - 08 M6 -
11.56 @ 118.82 - MCV - 08 Z51 M6-
11.68 @ 121.22 - Socalz06 - 08 A6
11.70 @ 118.54 - Z51 6spd - 08 Z51 CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (2529)
11.77 @ 121.41 - XStang - 08
11.80 @ 118.62 - 8850 - 08
11.84 @ 121.43 - C6 DVL - 08 Z51 M6
11.99 @ 120.44 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 M6 -
12.03 @ 120.42 - Quikag - 08 Z51 M6 -
You have 14 cars right there. And there are I believe a pair of 12.3s, and a 12.0 as well as that 11.7 have been discussed for inclusion in the bone stock category of an LS 3 list.
You have to start somewhere. JMO but no need to wait until you have 30 cars to start it.
Showroom Stock
12.40 @ 114.70 - Jschindler - 08 Z51 M6 NPP
12.41 @ 115.38 - HOXXOH - 08 A6 F55 -
12.49 @ 115.54 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 m6
External Engine Modifications (Bolt-Ons)
11.44 @ 119.11 - Theofel - 08 A6 -
11.47 @ 121.93 - Jbsblownc5 - 08 M6 Z51 -
11.56 @ 120.02 - Quicktime - 08 M6 -
11.56 @ 118.82 - MCV - 08 Z51 M6-
11.68 @ 121.22 - Socalz06 - 08 A6
11.70 @ 118.54 - Z51 6spd - 08 Z51 CAI, CB, hdrs, tune - (2529)
11.77 @ 121.41 - XStang - 08
11.80 @ 118.62 - 8850 - 08
11.84 @ 121.43 - C6 DVL - 08 Z51 M6
11.99 @ 120.44 - 1.8T - 08 Z51 M6 -
12.03 @ 120.42 - Quikag - 08 Z51 M6 -
You have 14 cars right there. And there are I believe a pair of 12.3s, and a 12.0 as well as that 11.7 have been discussed for inclusion in the bone stock category of an LS 3 list.
You have to start somewhere. JMO but no need to wait until you have 30 cars to start it.
But that is about to change!
I won't lose any sleep either way.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
Huh? 
Could you please make a list of the NUMEROUS members that you seem to be implying have been left off of the list.
As far as I can tell NO ONE else has been excluded, ONLY YOU.
He has.
And you will hard pressed to find too many people on this board who have something negative to say about Tommy such as you have just done here.
Maybe go make a thread and take a poll asking the members of this board if they feel that Tommy hasn't shown them all an extremely HIGH level of respect and decency...or if it's only ONE PERSON who's maybe getting justifiably treated that way.
Could you please make a list of the NUMEROUS members that you seem to be implying have been left off of the list.
As far as I can tell NO ONE else has been excluded, ONLY YOU.
And you will hard pressed to find too many people on this board who have something negative to say about Tommy such as you have just done here.
Maybe go make a thread and take a poll asking the members of this board if they feel that Tommy hasn't shown them all an extremely HIGH level of respect and decency...or if it's only ONE PERSON who's maybe getting justifiably treated that way.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
I like the current set up but if all others want to separate out the two motors then that would be fine with me as well I guess.
I'd even lend a hand in helping keep it updated/organized if need be as I am online over 12 hours per day (probably over 3 of which is spent on the CF as is quite evident by my post count LOL) sometimes.
I'd even lend a hand in helping keep it updated/organized if need be as I am online over 12 hours per day (probably over 3 of which is spent on the CF as is quite evident by my post count LOL) sometimes.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
From: The best one
He has.
Glad to see tommy unbanned JB after having arguments with him...
Last edited by 11secondGP; Apr 2, 2008 at 01:41 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,647
Likes: 1
From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
There should be a list that comes remotely close to dennis's times with bolt ons Ls2 or LS3..
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,221
Likes: 899
From: CA
2017 C5 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '08
I think there should definitely be a separate LS3 list.
Different engine and clearly more powerful in stock form.
However, that said, 385hp C5 Z06s appear on the same list with 2002-2004 Z06s.
But the LS3 based C6 is making up to 36hp more than an LS2 based C6. Pretty soon what you are going to have is a two tiered list if things stay the sam, anyway.
Already you have Dennis at the top of the bolt ons category, followed by 5 other LS3 based C6s. (Actually its 6. SoCalZ06 is waiting to go into the bolt ons category.
Pretty soon you are going to have Dennis followed by 10 or 15 other LS3 based C6s, and it won't be until 12 or 16 places down the bolt ons list before you see another LS2 based C6.
I don't see that being a good thing.
Different engine and clearly more powerful in stock form.
However, that said, 385hp C5 Z06s appear on the same list with 2002-2004 Z06s.
But the LS3 based C6 is making up to 36hp more than an LS2 based C6. Pretty soon what you are going to have is a two tiered list if things stay the sam, anyway.
Already you have Dennis at the top of the bolt ons category, followed by 5 other LS3 based C6s. (Actually its 6. SoCalZ06 is waiting to go into the bolt ons category.
Pretty soon you are going to have Dennis followed by 10 or 15 other LS3 based C6s, and it won't be until 12 or 16 places down the bolt ons list before you see another LS2 based C6.
I don't see that being a good thing.
How about Ricky and I agreeing on something...
While the LS3 is still a C6, not to mention a Corvette, there are numerous differences between the LS2 and the LS3 cars, besides the 30 to 36 HP.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ