Just curious, what was so unimpressive about Callaway's work? Im confused about how someone can look at the outside of a motor that has plastic covers on it and say the work is not impressive. Did it look stock?

 

I think the point for reliability a roots style blower is unmatched. Mercedes, GM, Ford, Land Rover, to name a few, all use roots blowers for their OEM supercharged cars. Why do you think that is?

 

My post may have not been as clear as it could have been. Sorry.

What I am saying, is the reliability of a centrifugal supercharger is not as reliable as one of the roots blowers. Look at all OEMs. How many are using centrifugal type blowers?

Since the centrifugal blower seem to be easier to "package," what could the reason be? I know it is the reliability of the blower when the two designs are concerned.

Also, Power Labs suggests his car is superior in power. This is misleading. He has long tube headers and a tune that more than likely, is outside of what would be legal by EPA standards.

I bet if I took a Callaway SC car and played by his rules, the dyno sheets would be close and he would be seeing nothing but my taillights by the virtue of power delivery - provided I could hook

 

What city/state is your shop located?

There is a shop in NY that has almost 15 years of delivering their "package" however, it is not really "defined" and I think it is tough to track any value added by it.

...then there is the whole EPA issue

So where are you??

 

Hmm that's an interesting point. I'm not disagreeing with you however I think driving characteristics might have something to do with it as well. Roots/Mag style blowers offer instant throttle response. Since auto manufacturers are designing cars for daily driving street use, instant low-end power is probably more favorable for the everyday commuter going from light to light. Plus centris in general are usually louder at idle than roots. An annoyance most commuters would not want to deal with.

 

I never said it wasn't done right, I said I wasn't impressed for the price. Numerous wiring harness splices that were not well done, tires and wheel package that didn't fit right were the two Items I remember.

I am sure they do great work, I was just not impressed for the price tag. I have seen LPE installs that looked better.

This is just my opinion.

 

OK, first we begin with basic math:
$18000 / 3 = $6000
If I pay $4500 for the kit, that leaves me with $1500 to install it, not zero.

Then your second point: I think it is really funny of you to call centrifugal cars dyno queens when *ALL* the fastest supercharged cars on this forum are running centrifugal blowers... I'm sorry, you may *prefer* roots cars, but the reality of it is that they don't even begin to compare to a well set up centrifugal in power, torque, or real world performance. The low end torque is what a lot of roots owners are looking for, and I can certainly understand and appreciate that; I bring it up all the time. But please don't fool yourself into thinking 1930s technology with adiabatic efficiency values in the low 60s of % is somehow better than a 78% efficient compressor mounted further away from engine heat and with a much larger, much more efficient intercooler in front of the car. This may not be your first day, but you clearly have a lot to learn.
Also, RELIABLE power comes from a well put together setup. So far I only know of ONE centrifugal car that blew up on the street, and that was because its owner attempted to street race with 87 octane on the tank. A roots would fare no better under such conditions.

 

Wow. I would almost guarantee Ive seen more Callaway cars than all but one or two members on this board and Ive never seen anything remotely close to what you describe. Callaway has the most OEM appearing installs Ive ever seen.

 

Precisely. The noise made by centrifugal superchargers has been deemed unacceptable by OEMs so far, and the powerband, with the majority of the power delivered at the top end, is not what most daily drivers / commuters are looking for.. Particularly those buying, say, a Mercedes Benz.

That said, don't fool yourself for a second thinking roots are trouble free... The (already not stellar) efficiency of the design depends on very tight tolerances between the rotors; a Teflon coating is often used to improve the seal and reduce friction. Do a search for "refurbished Eaton" and you'll see how long that lasts...
Plus, the roots is being all by phased out... The Cobalt SS went from a Roots M62 to a turbo, the Mini Cooper S went from a Roots M62 to Turbo, Mercedes Benz front from a big roots to a bigger N/A motor on the SL63, and to twin screws on the more powerful AMGs, etc... It is inefficient, outdated technology and everbody knows it; even Callaway is looking at moving to the TVS blowers, which are still a roots, but at least one of a more efficient design. Once twin screws become available for the C6, it will be difficult to justify using a 60% efficient blower with a power ceiling of around 550whp when you can get a 75 - 80% efficient one capable of 800+ HP.

 

Is that so?
Why don't you try searching around a bit... The concept of running headers and a tune on a roots car is not new or unheard of you know (I thought you "weren't new here" or something ). Go take a look at what maximum effort Maggie cars are making with headers, no cats and an agressive tune on pump gas and stock displacement. I bet you don't find a single one making 600whp. In contrast, 700+ WHP is commonplace for a stock displacemen centrifugal car running a more agressive setup. I keep using my car as an example because it is at the lower bounds of what you can do with a centrifugal: I run cats, pump gas, no cam, no meth no nitrous and a bone stock engine. And I daily drive my car. If I wasn't worried about reliability I could slap on a smaller pulley, a cam, a meth kit, and make 680WHP. Now find me a maggie car that makes that
And no, you wouldn't win in a race, because roots blowers fall on their face in the high RPM range. If you tried shifting at 6500RPM and rode the 4800 - 6500RPM bit of your powerband, you would find it sorely lacking. In contrast, that is the area in the power band where centrifugal cars make the most power.

 

Might wanna double check that fact and look up the username FunCool

Perhaps but lets talk belt slip, shredded belts, and ones that jump off cog. The numbers will go up drastically, not something you want in a car that sees more than the track.

I wouldn't really use a twin screw to counteract the centri arguement as it has a lot more in common with a roots blower. IMHO the twin screw is too big...the hood it took to contain the C5 twin screw would take a very special person to be able to tolerate it. Besides the TVS will produce nearly the same numbers.

At the end of the day, no one to my knowledge is making as much or more hp than Callaway while offering a warranty, 100% epa compliance, NADA recognition and daily driver reliability. In this world you get what you pay for. I have yet to meet someone with a Callaway that isn't absolutely thrilled with their purchase.

 

I don't purchase or modify a car with resale value in mind. I buy a car I like and modify it for my driving enjoyment. I don't finance and I tend to keep a car for a good number of years.

I've seen a couple professionally modified C5's (by Lingenfelter) that sold well. The seller certainly did not recoup all of his modification costs but received what I thought was a decent premium for the modifications. Many buyers know that Corvette owners take exceptional care of their cars and these buyers realize the value received when the previous owner had the car modified by a shop such as Lingenfelter.

When it comes to modifications there are many 'decent' shops, however, I feel the brand name does matter. IMO there are perhaps 6 Corvette tuner shops in the Country that warrant 'brand name' recognition....Lingenfelter and Callaway are at the top of the list (along with Katech for pure engine modifications). Their reputations for quality are long-established, well-deserved and their names have become synonymous with Corvette performance engineering. Their warranties evidence the quality of their products and workmanship.

When I think Callaway I think quality but with supercharged applications and their custom body creations. I know many people like FI but I'm not a fan of using a supercharger on a stock, cast-piston engine. I prefer a fully built, naturally aspirated engine...where LPE and Katech excel. I also feel the custom Callaway bodywork has rather limited appeal.

My personal preferences notwithstanding, Callaway is recognized as one of the premier Corvette 'modifiers' in the world...and deservedly so. From all accounts they're positively first rate!

IMO it would be extremely difficult for any upstart shop, no matter how good, to rival these long-established, brand name tuner shops. These guys have built reputations, a car at a time, for decades. They have developed significant in-house resources to draw on. These upper echelon shops are good at what they do and people know it. There are also a host of established but lesser recognized tuner shops to compete with. They all have a head start.

That said, the concept of building a successful 'performance shop' is not impossible but it will take premier engineering, flawless execution, customer satisfaction and many, many years.

 

Just did... "Fastest C5 6-speed Magnuson in the world", right?...
It runs:
A stroked motor
Methanol Injection kit
A Tiny 8-Rib drive pulley
Additional under drive pulleys on the blower

And for all that, it ran a 10.9 ... Forgive me for not being impressed when anyone with a right foot and 10K can put a centrifugal setup on his car that will go faster than that given similar tires. I guess I should thank you for proving my point?
You don't want me to post what a stroked 402 makes with methanol injection and an 8 rib setup driving a centrifugal blower, do you? Try 800-900hp.

Sure, lets talk belt slip. Belts slip when you try transmitting too much force through them. The force on the belt is a function of pulley size and blower parasitic drag. Blower drag is a function of airflow and blower efficiency. Because Roots blowers are the least efficient form of forced induction currently available for a Corvette, you will have a really easy time slipping, shredding and jumping drive belts with them if you tried to bump up the power. All the guys having belt issues with centrifugals are either running old setups, or attempting to get a 6 rib pulley to run 14+ PSI. Notice how the car in your example runs an 8 rib... That 2.4" pulley would not stand a chance in hell of not slipping with a 6 rib.

Actually twin screw blowers are smaller than a roots for the same power level; the C6 hoods KB are making are much more discrete than the big raised cowls Callaway uses. Twin screws are a better design, period. The fact that to a layperson they may appear similar to a roots blower is entirely inconsequential.


I have yet to meet a high schooler with a Honda Civic who isn't thrilled about their purchase either... Are you somehow surprized that someone who has spent 80thousand dollars on his car tells you he is happy with it? I spent less than half of that on mine and am absolutely thrilled about my purchase too
Oh, and Lingenfelter makes more power than callaway with a warranty, epa compliance, blah blah blah...

 

Oh to be young again and know it all. Here is a quote from LPE's website

"Items on this page are not legal for sale or use on California pollution controlled motor vehicles. "

That was on every page of Corvette packages. Care to try again?

800-900 rwhp doesn't equal fast times if you cant get it to hook up. If thats your argument would you care to post one of your time slips?

The Civic argument is pretty douchy...if thats the route your intelligent conversation goes down. Im out.

 

no.

 

I'm glad... Btw you want to talk emissions, here is my 1150CFM Vortech blower:



CARB certified

 

Nice! Now show us the tag on your long tubes and your warranty, you're almost there.

 

I can fix my own stuff if it breaks and for what I saved over having an 18thousand dollar install, I can swap at least 2 fully forged motors in there...

 

again....no...I looked the the Callaway cars....no guages ...nothing.... just a sticker saying Callaway...to much for to little IMO.

I own a Maggie powered C5 FWIW...been on the car for 35K miles issues installed by Mike Norris....zero issues....I paid $13k which included the blower,guages, tune, install, MCM hood and paint work...

 

Hang on...I thought we were talking CARB cert? Thats what you said. LPE was 100% EPA compliant with a warranty...their website says they aren't.

Then you showed me your CARB tag but fail on the headers.

Now the argument is that you can fix your own motor when it breaks and save all that money. Youre all over the board man. Fixing means not driving, a lot of guys want to go out, hit the button, and take off. For guys with the money, peace of mind, exclusivity, resale are worth it.

Perhaps Im biased as I spent this weekend cruising in Ft Lauderdale in a Callaway C16. The reaction to the car is almost scary. People flying up next to you to get a look, constant waves and thumbs up. Riding in that car on A1A makes one feel like a celebrity so many people pointing and looking.