I feel it's relevant to the discussion because:

1) Accurate information is always the most useful and beneficial.

2) I wouldn't want someone to plan, design, and build an entire setup based around a 224 cam and think that it will run mid 10's.

3) It takes away from the guys/gals who have dedicated so much time, money, and effort toward running some of those record passes.

What might not be important to you may have importance to many others.

 

Makes sense now....Tx's, hopefully you caught the respectful part!

 

Yeah, actually its been done with a 204 cam....10.61. Don't want to take anything away from the people who put in that time, money...ect

Cartek's cams have always been small. The 2x cam back then was based on 224/228 lobes that they gave all the lift specs for. Later these became known as XER lobes. A 228 at the time was the 3x cam. I dont want to be kill the point here but didn't Cartek get a car to go 10.61 ET with a stock LS2 cam? Getting ET down involves quite a bit with suspension and Cartek has demonstrated a mastery with this in the past. Its possible the 10.53 run was the 3x cam but if thats all you came away with from my post, you missed a lot. People today build such cam cars with lame compression while Dave Busch indicated 11.7:1 CR for the 3x cam. The area under the curve it gained was staggering. Today's C6 crowd running big peak hp cams on stock 10.7:1 CR isnt quite the same.

Tony Mamo himself using the early AFR 205's, acheived 480rwhp on his 5.7L with a 224/228 114LSA cam and I was an advocate at the time of how people dismiss the contribution of all the little add-ons from UDP to Crane gold rockers, Elec Water pumps, all of which when added together made significant changes.

Here is a post by Tony Mamo who showed a dynojet result of 480rwhp. It doesnt have the graph anymonre but there are people that comment on how it made 480. Tony lists the entire list of parts to get there which includes 3.90 gears which lower the reading a bit.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...yno-graph.html

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or feedback on my question? I also bought a zo6 rear end with the 3.42 gear.

 

To be frank, the vast majority of cars are overcammed with worse track results that they would have had if they had a cam that maximized area under the curve. I lost count how many cams have a flat spot up to 4000rpms they take off like you hit a 75 shot. This isnt going to match a cam that makes 15HP less at peak but more from idle to 4500rpm.

Small intake durations close the intake valve sooner increasing dynamic compression. This almost always pays a benefit down low especialyy in cam only builds and all the builds where people wont run the compression needed to have even the same dcr as the stock cam. A 224 cam at sea level with a 114+1 LSA in a 5.7L would work great with 11.4:1 and a 228 cam on a 114lsa would work with 11.7:1.

When you see huge cams in the mid 230's running 11:1 compression, they left a lot of area under the curve on the table.

A dcr calculator is something fun to play with if you have a cam card or two handy. It will tell you just how soft some builds are. At sea level with 93 octane, an 8.7 dcr is common. Meth allows more.

 

Certainly the cam designer can or should be able to tell you what it does in practice cant he? Hasnt he used it before?

What I see:

24 degree split
21 degrees overlap
narrow LSA

The narrow LSA closes the intake valve earlier so it brings up TQ. A 235 on a 113 peaks about right for a 6.8 liter around 6200-6250rpm. The wide split holds high rpm power out past the HP peak while adding 9 degrees overlap over a 6 degree split.

You have ported LS3 heads and only the head porter can tell you what results their heads have seen.

I think it would make about the same power with a 6 degree split based on what I saw using a 230/242, 230/234, 230/230, 230/236, all on the same engine at my expense to learn the truth about big splits.

At 21 degrees overlap and only 11:1 compression will make a rough idle and some driveability issues at 1600rpms. It will pull hard, just dont plan on a civil ride.

 

Low compression = poor throttle response off boost.

 

Really I don't have any kind of number targeted. It's more of, whatever it makes, it makes. I already had the supercharger installed, so went with a 402 LS2 stroker instead of selling it at a loss. If fuel economy drops 3mpg that wouldn't be so bad, I had a V8 dodge ram that got 11mpg I get what you're saying though, but for me I don't envision my torque being any less across the board than what the car was stock. First gear is pretty useless as it is. Also, I have an A6 with 3.42s and a 3400 stall. I know you're talking in general and not just straight at me, so other people should take their own mods and driving patterns into account when reading this stuff.

When other guys are trying to hit high power numbers and I'm trying to have reliability, I basically went down the checklist of "what can I do that would likely increase longevity and reliability". I didn't make my choices to be smarter than everyone else, or to have a tech reason for more power or run 87 octane - my choices were based on blowing up my stock engine and not wanting to encounter that scenario again. There's always a chance, but I wanted to reduce the chances where possible.

The first mod I ever did was getting 3.42s installed. It seriously changed how the car felt, gave it an insane "fast" feel. All the other mods I did just added to how fast it really was. It will be interesting to see how much off idle throttle response I've potentially lost by the choices I made.

No, 11 months so far But actually, the motor died in September, then in October I had it towed to the shop it's at now. Funds were hard to come by (being married, approval from the wife was harder to come by), so it sat at the shop for many months. It was not just an engine swap. It was a 6L80E transmission rebuild from Circle D, lots of parts from The DriveShaft Shop, coilovers, tires, new engine, meth injection, trans cooler, Circle D torque converter, new front bumper and front fenders, and a nearly full body paint job - only thing not getting painted are rear fenders and doors. So no it's not quite 11 months just to do a simple motor swap, a lot of it was waiting on parts to come in, and most of it was waiting for me to have the money approved to pay for it all.

True this particular piece regarding altitude is important to many people, more to others than to me. Being a public forum I know many people will read the posts and hopefully our back and forth will have some pieces where they can relate to what I did/am doing, and where they can learn something new from you, etc. I'd hope they substitute their situation for my own and make their decisions and conclusions accordingly

I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. I understand and completely agree that I'm leaving a lot of power on the table by reducing the compression, and perhaps there are few if any real benefits from doing so - and although I feel good with my decision right now, the true test will be how much I enjoy driving the car when I get it back.

BTW, it was my understanding I would lose some throttle response with a 3400 stall torque converter, having to give it a bit more gas to get the car moving. Sounds like the combination of low CR and high stall will prove detrimental to my throttle response, guess I'll find out and either learn to live with it or make the appropriate changes.

 

Hey Spin, I have a question about a post from a while back concerning a build you were talking discussing. You quoted these numbers about a stock CI LS2 with TF225's but I noticed a meth kit is also on the car. Do a lot of the H/C cars making 520+rwhp require meth injection? If not, what was the reason for the kit? I realize that thread was over a year ago, but it was bumped recently and I noticed the numbers. The TF225s certainly are intriguing, but other than dpc300c(I believe that's his name) I don't see many members posting track results. Yes, track results will differ within areas but if you remember from our conversation on the phone I'm in NJ and high altitude isn't a major concern. I know another member mentioned this, but you are an asset to the site and add more useful help for free than many vendors.

LS2 C6 2007
Trick Flow 225
11.6:1 CR
G6X3
LG 1 3/4 w/cats
stock gears
Ported FAST 102
Ported TB
UD pulley
LS7 clutch al flywheel
Royal Purple fluids
93 octane w/Labonte meth injection
LS3 NPP exhaust

526rwhp/463rwtq SAE dynojet 248

Others have gotten 520rwhp on the LS2 with these heads namely Braciole.

 

braciole got 520 according to rpms dyno and he did run a 10 6, and hit 134 mph, if you look at the video you will see he could have left harder and shifted faster,

 

Under 4k doesn't really matter much when talking about drag racing.

For a street car looking for just regular street performance I definitely agree many are overcammed because they don't see much power increase under 4k.

For me, I want a drag cam making insane power from 4k-7k. I don't really care about "off idle" power. My converter will flash up to nearly 4k and then won't see under that through the run.

 

I used to believe that until I was shown just how much harder a car leaves the line with 40 more TQ in that 2000-4000rpm range. Even if there wasnt a power difference down low the up top power isnt as clear cut on our engines.

An LS3 is limited by its heads with what it can use with cam size. 227 intake durations and 235 intake durations make the exact same power from 4000rpms to 7000rpms. The 21 century cam is 5 degrees overlap and the LG G6 cam is 18. Why you would run more overlap is beyond me if it isnt making more power up top? There is no insane power made by having more cam on that cylinder head. It goes back to what 99blancoss said.....combo.

Now put a G6 cam on the same LS3 but use Trick Flow 235's and you will see near 540rwhp.

Back to my statement taking into account that no one runs trick flows on an LS3....most cammed cars on this board are overcammed....and I will add: because of the combo. They wont give up the beloved LS3 head.

Your car having an auto trans is also in the minority and I agree on autos it makes no difference except for getting a big overlap cam to drive nice. If the power is the same from 4k up, dont overcam unless you have the rest of the combo.

My statement does have conditions so I stand corrected if you have the right head and dont care about driveability.

 

Charlie from RPM showed that a stock head/cam car shows nearly 20rwhp gains from meth so yes a 500rwhp car will also. If you're at 526, expect 545 or so and the biggest gains are in the TQ. The tune is able to run max timing with optimized compression which most builds dont seem to do.....11.8:1 with a 235/245 cam. Higher compression also makes it drive better. Obviously more octane allows higher compression. Low in rpm you run normal timing where meth isnt as ramped up. Meth's biggest benefit is on really hot days where your car will pull like its 70 outside when its 100 because its lowering IATs by 30 degrees.

E85 is also an option if you get the 60lb injectors and pump needed to support the power level. I like meth because it also lowers IATs and you dont have to hunt down E85 stations.

 

If anyone is interested in a Trick Flow 235/G6X3 cam build using meth, please contact me. The install is in Colorado Springs and is for research on my part so I'm willing to donate the time into it.

If you already have a G6 cam with stock LS3 heads and want it to drive much better, thats even better for me.

 

Spin, I have some information that maybe of interest to you, I'm not ready to post any results yet. If you are interested send me a PM with your email & I will forward.

 

Where is the meth entering the intake tract to reduce IAT's?

 

I understand what methanol does and E85, but I got the impression that there were builds making 520rwhp+ and big torque numbers without these types of fuel upgrades. When I talked with Fran from RPM he mentioned he had a customer's car crack the 510rwhp mark with a set of Cartek 3x or 4x heads so I'm curious how different they are from the 2x heads that I have. We seem to have a numerous amount of numbers from stock CI cars, but anymore stroker builds that are willing to contribute?

 

There were a few members curious on the exhaust setup I have on my car so here is a small clip of the car at idle. The exhaust is Kooks 1 3/4'' headers, hi-flow mid-pipe with turn-downs on the end of the pipe. Some may think it's a bit loud, but I like it Not sure how to post the actual video but here is the link for anyone curious.

http://youtu.be/KV9WcJmsuAY

 

Just an update, it's still being tuned but it made 626/522 without meth - they'll probably be doing that today (not tuning to require it, just for additional safety). Factoring in that its an automatic with a 3400 TC, 3.42 gears, was built at 9.2:1CR, and we didn’t pulley down from the 3.8″ that I had on my car when the engine blew, the numbers are very pleasing.

No sheet yet but those numbers are better than the 571/505 I made previously. Even if the #s down low are lower than before, the high stall will get me into the band much faster.

Oh, the best part.. 24mpg hwy. Some said 9.2:1 was too low, despite that being what the ZR1 has, but I'm perfectly happy with the results

 

I have 2 Strokers:
Vette:
First was H\C (AFR 225's & Fast) on my 346, dyno was 434/400 and it ran 11.33 ET @ 124

Changed to 383 Stroker, no porting just out of the box ARF 225's and a Fast 90. Dyno was 480/445, Et dropped to 10.66 @ 129

Silverado:
402 Stroker with same AFR 225's and Fast 92. Dyno is only 445/413 but it pushes a 4000 lb truck to 11.14 @ 120
The cam is very mild, 232/601, great street machine.


I would not worry that you don't have 550 hp Stroker. That is Just dyno numbers. See how it produces numbers at the track. Get the right gear, tires and suspension and you will be happy. Robz that posted earlier... is a master at that.





Sorry I don't have the 383 dyno and slip handy. I do have the slip and vid of the 10.66 run in the ZO6 fast list on this forum if you want to look at it.

Pitt