Old Tech vs. New
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Pro
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 679
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From: TremontonUT UT
Old Tech vs. New
May I start by saying the devil made me open this topic. I am sitting here watching Pass Time on the Speed Channel. I have read a lot of post here about how much faster the new 427 is compared to days gone by. I like new technology but grew up in the days of watching the big blocks duke it out every Friday night. I just watched a 67 Fairlane 500 running AA/S turn 10.10 @ 132. The owner/driver looked old enough to have run it back in 67. He claimed it was as it came from the factory except for some bolt owns like headers and slicks. Also had a full interior. Interesting to say the least. Later! Frank 
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,061
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From: montreal quebec
60 s cars were 14 second pigs.People tend to enhance the performance of their cars when recanting old stories.ls6 chevelle s and hemi cudas were high 12s with slicks and gears and s.d trans ams were 14 flat cars.Todays cars are faster than ever thats for sure.There are no 60s or 70s cars to race z06,zr1 porsche 911 turbo or gtr.Stock vs stock its not even a fair matchup.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 679
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From: TremontonUT UT
60 s cars were 14 second pigs.People tend to enhance the performance of their cars when recanting old stories.ls6 chevelle s and hemi cudas were high 12s with slicks and gears and s.d trans ams were 14 flat cars.Todays cars are faster than ever thats for sure.There are no 60s or 70s cars to race z06,zr1 porsche 911 turbo or gtr.Stock vs stock its not even a fair matchup.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 7
From: Bristol raceway area
May I start by saying the devil made me open this topic. I am sitting here watching Pass Time on the Speed Channel. I have read a lot of post here about how much faster the new 427 is compared to days gone by. I like new technology but grew up in the days of watching the big blocks duke it out every Friday night. I just watched a 67 Fairlane 500 running AA/S turn 10.10 @ 132. The owner/driver looked old enough to have run it back in 67. He claimed it was as it came from the factory except for some bolt owns like headers and slicks. Also had a full interior. Interesting to say the least. Later! Frank
I can relate to that!At the Pure Stock drags,there are many '60's and '70's musclecars that ran low to mid 13's factory stock.
Some were in the 12's and all of this was with "skinny" tires.
The numbers that these cars run are Certified Stock. The engine and transmission must be correct, as Factory. The engines are torn down and have a "NHRAtype" inspection and then reassembled under the inspectors supervision. At this time, special paint is used to seal key engine bolts. The car has to have Factory exterior appearance, air cleaners,cast iron exhaust manifolds, Factory type tires and wheels.
Passing the Certified Stock inspection removes all doubt and eliminates any speculation about the car being the Real Thing.
Some examples of cars in the 12's: 69 ZL-1 Camaro, 69 Vette L-88, 69 Nova SS L-78, 70 Dodge Challenger 440.
Many cars in the 13's.
One car many people regard as the last musclecar was the '73-74 Pontiac SD 455 Trans Am.
Hot Rod tested this car and has a posting of 13.54 @104.29.
Others ran 13.50's @103 at a regional BOP event.
Bob
Racer
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
From: Double Oak TX
I grew up in Michigan near US131 dragway with my uncle taking me to the races every Sunday starting in 1962. In addition, my neighbor in 1962 had the NHRA record in G/S so to say I was weaned on drag racing is a pretty fair statement. US131 was truly one of the premier tracks in the country and can say I saw about every big name drag racer at one time run there.
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
I can relate to that!
At the Pure Stock drags,there are many '60's and '70's musclecars that ran low to mid 13's factory stock.
Some were in the 12's and all of this was with "skinny" tires.
The numbers that these cars run are Certified Stock. The engine and transmission must be correct, as Factory. The engines are torn down and have a "NHRAtype" inspection and then reassembled under the inspectors supervision. At this time, special paint is used to seal key engine bolts. The car has to have Factory exterior appearance, air cleaners,cast iron exhaust manifolds, Factory type tires and wheels.
Passing the Certified Stock inspection removes all doubt and eliminates any speculation about the car being the Real Thing.
Some examples of cars in the 12's: 69 ZL-1 Camaro, 69 Vette L-88, 69 Nova SS L-78, 70 Dodge Challenger 440.
Many cars in the 13's.
One car many people regard as the last musclecar was the '73-74 Pontiac SD 455 Trans Am.
Hot Rod tested this car and has a posting of 13.54 @104.29.
Others ran 13.50's @103 at a regional BOP event.
Bob
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
I can relate to that!At the Pure Stock drags,there are many '60's and '70's musclecars that ran low to mid 13's factory stock.
Some were in the 12's and all of this was with "skinny" tires.
The numbers that these cars run are Certified Stock. The engine and transmission must be correct, as Factory. The engines are torn down and have a "NHRAtype" inspection and then reassembled under the inspectors supervision. At this time, special paint is used to seal key engine bolts. The car has to have Factory exterior appearance, air cleaners,cast iron exhaust manifolds, Factory type tires and wheels.
Passing the Certified Stock inspection removes all doubt and eliminates any speculation about the car being the Real Thing.
Some examples of cars in the 12's: 69 ZL-1 Camaro, 69 Vette L-88, 69 Nova SS L-78, 70 Dodge Challenger 440.
Many cars in the 13's.
One car many people regard as the last musclecar was the '73-74 Pontiac SD 455 Trans Am.
Hot Rod tested this car and has a posting of 13.54 @104.29.
Others ran 13.50's @103 at a regional BOP event.
Bob
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,359
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From: Concord NC
I grew up in Michigan near US131 dragway with my uncle taking me to the races every Sunday starting in 1962. In addition, my neighbor in 1962 had the NHRA record in G/S so to say I was weaned on drag racing is a pretty fair statement. US131 was truly one of the premier tracks in the country and can say I saw about every big name drag racer at one time run there.
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
The only exception I know of is the '64 Thunderbolt. But it was stripped down from the factory & built as a purpose race car. If memory serves it ran an 11.7 @122 or so.
Still no match for what we today consider to be truly fast.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 401
Likes: 1
From: flowery branch ga.
Not bad for a car with power seats, air, and had to have a full cage installed. Guessing the car weighs 38 to 3900 lbs.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
From: Double Oak TX
That sounds about right to me as that was a factory built car specifically for drag racing. All the big teams had aluminum front ends, acid dipped bodies and drilled out frames. They would even remove the springs from the seats along with a zillon other tricks that I probably know 25% of.
To give some real prospective, I have a dyno sheet of a factory COPO 427 Camaro. (You had to be a GM executive to order one built.) The car came with headers in the trunk that the purchaser had to install themselves.
This particular car had 2000 original miles and was taken to A&S automotive (whom gave me the dyno sheet) for tuning. AFTER tuning the car made 338 RWHP and 379 RWT. Scott Whitehorn the owner of A&S took me for a ride in the car. I kept thinking.....is this all? Damn, I thought it would scare the **** of me, not bore me.
The were some legit 10 second cars in the later 60's. But you had to go to Detroit or Chicago about 3:00am to see them.
Denny
To give some real prospective, I have a dyno sheet of a factory COPO 427 Camaro. (You had to be a GM executive to order one built.) The car came with headers in the trunk that the purchaser had to install themselves.
This particular car had 2000 original miles and was taken to A&S automotive (whom gave me the dyno sheet) for tuning. AFTER tuning the car made 338 RWHP and 379 RWT. Scott Whitehorn the owner of A&S took me for a ride in the car. I kept thinking.....is this all? Damn, I thought it would scare the **** of me, not bore me.
The were some legit 10 second cars in the later 60's. But you had to go to Detroit or Chicago about 3:00am to see them.
Denny
Last edited by d48mclain; Nov 29, 2011 at 09:05 AM. Reason: stuck on dumb
Racer
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
From: Double Oak TX
While I'm at it............
Nationally level SS cars in 62 ran high 12's. In 63 the AFX cars ran low 12's. In 64 the Thunderbolts and altered wheel base MoPars ran high 11's. In 65, all hell broke loose and was the birth of the funny car.
OK, enough out of me.
Denny
Nationally level SS cars in 62 ran high 12's. In 63 the AFX cars ran low 12's. In 64 the Thunderbolts and altered wheel base MoPars ran high 11's. In 65, all hell broke loose and was the birth of the funny car.
OK, enough out of me.
Denny
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I had a 67 GTO as a first car that ran high 12's. I ported the heads/intake, had headers, 400-4.11-4 spd car. People would flock around that car after a pass asking where the NOS was etc.
Now a bone stock Vette would beat that with nav, AC, and five times the gas mileage. Lets not even get into the safety factor.
I appreciate the old cars, but I'll drive a new one thank you.
Now a bone stock Vette would beat that with nav, AC, and five times the gas mileage. Lets not even get into the safety factor.
I appreciate the old cars, but I'll drive a new one thank you.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 417
Likes: 3
From: Fallsington PA
That 10.10 has absolutly no relationship to what a stock Fairlane would do at all. Its a purpose built race car. You can build a streetable 7 or 8 second street car with today's technology and get better mileage than a factory car of 40 years ago. A 12 second car in the 60's was a racecar.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
From: Double Oak TX
The 64 SS that I own is like driving a truck. Damn pretty car, but scary at speed.
In the process of doing power disk brakes and power steering. Try parking one sometime w/o power steering. And, you just thought you were big and macho.
Can't beat the new stuff. Hell some even park themselves.
Denny
In the process of doing power disk brakes and power steering. Try parking one sometime w/o power steering. And, you just thought you were big and macho.
Can't beat the new stuff. Hell some even park themselves.
Denny
I had a 67 GTO as a first car that ran high 12's. I ported the heads/intake, had headers, 400-4.11-4 spd car. People would flock around that car after a pass asking where the NOS was etc.
Now a bone stock Vette would beat that with nav, AC, and five times the gas mileage. Lets not even get into the safety factor.
I appreciate the old cars, but I'll drive a new one thank you.
Now a bone stock Vette would beat that with nav, AC, and five times the gas mileage. Lets not even get into the safety factor.
I appreciate the old cars, but I'll drive a new one thank you.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
From: Warwick NY
The 64 SS that I own is like driving a truck. Damn pretty car, but scary at speed.
In the process of doing power disk brakes and power steering. Try parking one sometime w/o power steering. And, you just thought you were big and macho.
Can't beat the new stuff. Hell some even park themselves.
Denny
In the process of doing power disk brakes and power steering. Try parking one sometime w/o power steering. And, you just thought you were big and macho.
Can't beat the new stuff. Hell some even park themselves.
Denny
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I still have an old 427 Vette in my garage along with the new 427 (Z06). Absolutely no comparison. The new 427 will walk away with the AC on, stereo blasting,with ease. The old cars are fun and feel torquey but won't hang with the new 427 in a straight line or road course.
The only Corvettes that were even close in a straight line back in the 60's were very limited production examples like the L88's of 67, 68 and 69. The Ford Thunerbolts were quick but there weren't many of those around.
The only Corvettes that were even close in a straight line back in the 60's were very limited production examples like the L88's of 67, 68 and 69. The Ford Thunerbolts were quick but there weren't many of those around.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 7
From: Bristol raceway area
I grew up in Michigan near US131 dragway with my uncle taking me to the races every Sunday starting in 1962. In addition, my neighbor in 1962 had the NHRA record in G/S so to say I was weaned on drag racing is a pretty fair statement. US131 was truly one of the premier tracks in the country and can say I saw about every big name drag racer at one time run there.
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
In the “stock” category they had two classes: Pure Stock (such APS) and Stock (such as AS). Because there was so much cheating and factory support in the stock classes, they made the Pure Stock class so the average guy could have fun and be competitive.
Anybody who actually thinks you merely walked into a show room, bought a muscle car throwing a set of headers n 7” grooved slicks on a car back then and run tens is pretty naive. Most of the muscle cars of the 60’s were 14 and 15 second cars. Memory has faded a bit, but I honestly do not recall seeing any cars running PS that were in the 13’s. Remember, the tires were tiny. In addition you can’t believe what you read in the mags as the factories were famous for throwing ringers to the editors of the mags for testing. Don’t think they wanted to sell cars do ya?
The factory teams like the Ramchargers for example were Chrysler engineers who pulled every trick in the book including putting cement in the spare tire for better traction. Ford had their engineers cheating and even though GM officially pulled out of racing in 63, they had some side action going on also. How many 1963 Pontiac Tempest station wagons with a 4 speed and a 421 super duty motor did GM sell? I’m betting one………Mrs B Grocery Getter owned by Arnie Beswick. Even that car was a low 12 second car at best.
To this day, I still own my uncles 1964 327 Impala SS which looks almost perfectly stock except for a Holly mechanical double pumper. However, it makes 433 hp and 468 torque on Wayne Calverts dyno. A Pure Stock car for sure.
Denny
I know of the Stock and pure stock you speak of. Very familiar with it.
Sure there was probably some cheating from some racers back then. For this topic however, i am speaking of Certified Stock.
Pure Stock musclecar drag racing now is just that, Stock. For official numbers they must be Registered Certified Stock. People are taking this very seriously to not only to be the best, but to put to rest many of the rumors and speculation about the old musclecars Performance.There are several in the 12's but quite a few in the 13's.
As stated, for a car to be Certified Stock there can be very little deviation from factory and everything is checked and inspected. As stated, special paint is used to seal key engine bolts. If at any point, the racer has to turn a bolt, an inspector has to re certify the component and mark it.
As for Hot Rod and other magazines posting of mid 13's for the 73-74 SD 455 Trans Am, i was at a BOP event and watched 2 of them running mid 13's stock.
I own a 87 GN that i bought new. I ran a best of 13.85 @99 mph off the showroom floor. Maybe not spectacular now but in '87 a new Vette was running mid 15's.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 40,982
Likes: 9,735
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
I remember going to the drags in Northwestern PA back in the early 60s. There was a 62 409 that ran AHRA Superstock with slicks that would turn consistent mid 13s. Then this guy with another 62 409 (with the fastback roof style) showed up from York, PA. I don't remember his name now but he was a big time touring racer and he started turning low 13s and was challenged as violating the rules. After a quick inspection revealed they had a large tool box in the trunk (it took two beefy guys to get it out) he was allowed to run again. His next run netted a 12.9 and a bunch of PO'd competitors. A year or so later a guy in a 64 Hemi Dodge was the top dog but his times never got out of the 12s. All of these cars were set up for drag racing by pro shops that knew what they were doing and were driven by experienced drivers. They met all of the so called stock rules but weren't the same as the day they left the dealership.
Bill
Bill
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
From: Warwick NY
The "A" stock record in 66 was 11.86. held by a L72 66 Biscayne which weighed 3400 lbs. I'm sure the rules were streched some but it was still HP/LB to determine classes. They did tear down motors back then if you set a NHRA record you had to be careful what you did. There were a few cars in the late 60's and early 70's that were honest mid 12 sec cars on the street. I owned a few and two that come to mind were a 66 L72 Vette and a 69 L78 Nova. though they did have headers and slicks. Still compared to today can't compare. The thing that amazes me is those cars got 8-10 mpg if you kept your foot out of them and today a Z06 with more RWHP than their advertized HP gets 25.
but it was still HP/LB to determine classes. They did tear down motors back then if you set a NHRA record you had to be careful what you did. There were a few cars in the late 60's and early 70's that were honest mid 12 sec cars on the street. I owned a few and two that come to mind were a 66 L72 Vette and a 69 L78 Nova. though they did have headers and slicks. Still compared to today can't compare. The thing that amazes me is those cars got 8-10 mpg if you kept your foot out of them and today a Z06 with more RWHP than their advertized HP gets 25.