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Hi there, I know some, or maybe a lot, can maybe give me a few pointers. I have been humbled by my local track and would love to here some pointers to steer me in the right direction. I have read rangers tips over and over again and was hoping to get his DVD yet I can't get through to him either here nor his website.
My car is an 09Z06.
Mods are as follows; Cam, heads, And full bolt-ons with a drag radials.
I feel like I'm leaving a lot to be desired particularly my launch which automatically affects my 60ft, 1/8th and overall.
My local track isn't perfect, and I am having trouble sticking the launch. I've experimented launching @3000 and it bites and bogs, @4000 i light them up, @3500 goes one way or the other.
Any of you launch small and then rip out with better results? redline shifting giving best results?
Here's my best 4 passes with a total of 18 under my belt. I think on the right track, the car should be 10 worthy. I understand I need many more passes for getting it all down, but hoping I could help the learning curve from guys who are willing to spread the knowledge. thanks in advance
We don't have many "fast" cars around here, or at least spending time at the track. I know everyone that chimes in will say seat time, seat time, and more seat time. It's just a little fustrating that with all the extra power and set of DR's I'm barely besting the 11.7 stock numbers and miles off of Rangers 10.71 stock with DR's.
To be completely honest, and that's not going to put me in the record books, i'd be more than thrilled to match Rangers time even with and extra 150-175hp lol
I feel like if I could get that 60ft time down to 1.50 I may have a chance accomplishing my 10's goal.
are you supposed to roast Drag radials, or just a good 4-5 second burnout?
was just looking for some first hand experienced input from other vette drivers that's all. No point asking the Impreza STI guy that runs AWD and launches at 6500rpm. Need input from veterans with the same car I think at least.
From: The only state to ever kick another country's ass! TEXAS
Which drag radials are you running? I'm new to racing Corvettes but it has been my experience in other cars that the MT radials do good with a long burnout only with excellent track prep. If you have so so track prep they do much better with just enough burnout to clean them off. I discovered I could burn them good and the rear would slide around like it was on ice. Come back around with no burnout and they would hook. This was on a solid axle so it will be different but the tires should act the same.
You are on your way. It takes time and the car will pickup a lot in the cold air.
A few answers for now.
You don't need to roast the drag radials. 4-5 seconds is fine as long as you are seeing white smoke. Keep in mind not all drag radials are created equal.
Yes, shift at redline for best result when the car is dialed in.
Are you on the stock clutch??? If so then you will have to get off it quickly and but not fully dump it. The stock clutch changes the launch approach completely.
With your setup and experience level, I'd like to see you launch around 4000rpms and adjust tires, tire pressure, shocks, launch technique from there. I'd probably start around 17 psi cold at this point with a drag radial and a clutch.
Ideally most all manual vette guys should run bias ply tires out back with skinnies and you will enjoy the race experience so much more. As you know there are a ton of variables and we can help you better if we know more specifics about your setup and if you provide some launch audio and video from the side.
Dr.Ron, Joe G, and Gary2004Z06 are racers who can help you out a lot.
You are right in wanting to avoid that bog, but as you've learned it's a very fine balance between bogging and lighting them up.
I have had good luck with the stock clutch and drag radials by letting the clutch out a bit slower than you think you should. Again, it's a fine line, if you go too slow, it'll just burn up the clutch and never "catch". And if you let it out too fast, it'll bog as you found out. And if the tires or track aren't great, then it'll spin as you found out. I completely agree to start at 17 psi that's my magic number and I don't do a long burnout as you can see from my vids below.
It sounds to me that you tires may not be up to snuff. Hold old are they and what kind are they? The will have a manufactured date, typically in four digits like 0615 for this month, for example. If they are more than a couple/three years old they are dry and won't hold no matter what you do.
Lighting them up at 4000 either means you are releasing the clutch too quickly or your tires or track prep is not up to snuff.
Let us know on the tires and clutch - you have the best Vette operator around in your thread (RobZ) who's helped me tremendously in the past. He'll get you going and I'll chime in with my experience if I think I can add anything.
One thing that helped me a lot was listening to the timing of the clutch release. Here's one of my runs where you can see the tach. Don't try this yet - I floor the car when the lights come down as you can see and it's on the floor before I start releasing the clutch. This will break parts if you're not well experienced with the clutch release as RobZ advised when he told me about this. Took me hundreds of runs to get the feel (and nerve) to do this.
I am using Hooiser 315/35R17's drag radials. I didn't want to mess around with brakes but understand i'm loosing some tire flex and grip. I had the front stockers at 40psi and DR's at 17-18psi
As far as set-up goes I am using the Livernois motorsports Stage 3 kit for the LS7. installed by me. I tweak the package a tad, i opted to use the NW 102 TB rather than porting mine, and added the ati damper hoping to steal a few extra ponies. here's a link to the kit http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...Installed.html
As far as the clutch it is the stock clutch that i have these runs on, i however am in the middle of installing the ZR1 clutch package from Katech at this very moment, little lighter and obviously much stronger.
I'm going on the dyno this tuesday so that ed hutchings can finalize the tune so there might be some hp/tq on the table but in all honesty I'm not exactly using the power I have now properly lol. I've seen many trap passed the 130 mark with what I have.
I know track conditions are key and up here in near Ottawa, we really only have the 1 track. next closest is 2.5hrs away in napierville but apparently is a much better track. I was however invited to get on the track during a real race day where the track will be better prepped and get runs in between the big boys. I have gone on time trials and cruise nights and they will let anyone go even 4 wheelers. they really mess up the launch pad. stupid hondas with winter tires looking for grip. All those excuses I know lol.
what or how does the strategy change with a new clutch, you mentioned that.....what is the best approach. you think launching rpm would vary? should I slip it a bit?
I had been launching at 4k but it spins enough. what i was attempting to do is hold the throttle, and never give more until the tires grab. when they do, pull the trigger. But in all fairness, there was a few guys hooking pretty good so i can't only blame conditions.
Joe G
That's one serious launch and you shift so well. I do have some video but non of these last few. the video's i have are the first few pulls, as i was failing burnouts and banging of the rev limiter from 1st to 2nd. With the new clutch installed and final tune in by Tuesday the following Saturday I will definitely get you guys some video. at that point the car will no longer "change" so if things get better or worse it's on my skill. well you know what I'll get at least on video up so you can see my starting point and how the track looks.
Different clutches react differently. Stock clutches will usually take the slip and absorb the transition from high rpm 0 mph to getting started without bogging or spinning. Dual cilutches often won't slip like that, they just hook up. In that case bias ply tires are better as they can spin a little to absorb the hit then hook up. Drag radials aren't very good at hooking up after they spin as you noted.
You might want to try holding at a lower rpm say 3000 but as soon as he car moves release the clutch and press the gas as the same time.
Not sure if your clutch will handle that as you have a lot more power than me. Perhaps Rob or Gary can chime in as they have more experience than me.
Joe G
That's one serious launch and you shift so well. I do have some video but non of these last few. the video's i have are the first few pulls, as i was failing burnouts and banging of the rev limiter from 1st to 2nd. With the new clutch installed and final tune in by Tuesday the following Saturday I will definitely get you guys some video. at that point the car will no longer "change" so if things get better or worse it's on my skill. well you know what I'll get at least on video up so you can see my starting point and how the track looks.
Thank you for the kind words! But I'm not much of a shifter. I've broken my third gear blocker ring two times (yours is stronger if you have a 6060) so I take it easy now.
hopefully this works. I never posted a vid on youtube but I think i had to in order to share it here.
This video shows a bad burnout but despite that it hooked, then bogged down really bad. I have bettered my skills since but of course the car can do more. Thanks again everyone who is chiming in. I really appreciate the pointers and look forward to hearing more and trying them out. I'm a humble guy and understand the car is more car than I am driver and will probably remain that way for a bit lol.
great thanks will do. gonna check that out soon. gonna try to get some work accomplished on my clutch lol. i keep watching videos...but to learn of course so it's still productive
Joe G can indeed help you out a great deal.
In fact we'll all try help out and try not to make it confusing. The key is to start with a game plan and stick to it next time out and we can help you make adjustments at the track based on what happened on the previous run.
Get video from outside the car from the side that icludes the whole car if possible. Good audio is important too.
Those tires are good for now but keep in mind the new clutch will want to bite harder which can make it harder to launch as the car will want to bog down. With a 427 and all that torque this can be a challenge so it will be important to be very detailed in your approach and adjustments.
So hit us up a few days before you go to the track and tell us the details of your dyno session and how the clutch feels and grabs. I'd like to see you go to the track with a gameplan that we can iron out here in this thread with everybody's input, then make small adjustments each pass at the track. There are many ways to accomplish your goals but I like to factor in the exprience of the driver and the setup you are using in order to make a plan that will help you figure it out easier. Then we analyze and review your video and help you make adjustments for the next time out. And tell Ed hello.
Joe G can help you out a great deal.
In fact we'll all try help out and try not to make it confusing. The key is to start with a game plan and stick to it next time out and we can help you make adjustments at the track based on what happened on the previous run.
Get video from outside the car from the side that icludes the whole car if possible. Good audio is important too.
Those tires are good for now but keep in mind the new clutch will want to bite harder which can make it harder to launch as the car will want to bog down. With a 427 and all that torque this can be a challenge so it will be important to be very detailed in your approach and adjustments.
So hit us up a few days before you go to the track and tell us the details of your dyno session and how the clutch feels and grabs. I'd like to see you go to the track with a gameplan that we can iron out here in this thread with everybody's input, then make small adjustments each pass at the track. There are many ways to accomplish your goals but I like to factor in the exprience of the driver and the setup you are using in order to make a plan that will help you figure it out easier. Then we analyze and review your video and help you make adjustments for the next time out. And tell Ed hello.
I was worried at first because nobody was responding to my thread and now couldn't be happier that i have a few experienced guys looking to genuinely help me out. I am all ears and will definitely get up some video and try my best to take pointers to the track. I will say Hi to ed for sure. we are miles apart so he is tuning me remotely will i send him logs using hp tuners. rented a local dyno Tuesday morning so by then the clutch break in should be good if i can mope around and cruise on the weekend some.
None of us were born with the ability to coax a 1.4 (or in Rob & Gary's case, 1.3) 60 foot out of a high horsepower manual car with an aluminum rear end; so we've all been right where you are.
Now the good news is you're a smart gentleman asking questions and wanting to learn, not a cocky guy who thinks he knows it all and can't learn anything from us guys who have already been down the path. Your path to becoming a sharp driver will be greatly compressed! My friend (now, we met here actually but remain friends even after he sold his Vette) went from 11.2's and thinking his car was a dud to this pass in just a few dozen passes listening to Rob Z and me.
He did a flat shifting mod to his HP Tuners (also self taught) which is how he can shift like this.
And more great news that you have HP Tuners. Now we can really help you. If you send me your best runs to joegut at gmail dot com I will do an analysis and tell you what you are doing. I really stepped up my game when I started scanning and reading the passes to see what exactly I was doing. I'm a CPA; my motto is you can't improve it until you measure it. lol
I recommend a cheap suction mount for your smart phone - put it on your side window so we can see your tach like you saw in my video above, along with an outside video if you can do it. Alternatively, a go pro showing your shifting would be ok, but I personally like to see the tach.
Here's what I'm talking about in the analysis - you can get all this info from HP Tuners once you learn what you are looking for:
1. Launch rpm = 4373, 100% throttle, full boost of 8.2 psi (calculated as the scanned map of 22.9 psi - 14.71 baro (per dragtimes, @ 3 pm, 54 degrees, 44% humidity, 29.95 baro, (29.95 inches of mercury = 14.71 psi), = (204) DA). I'm assuming on these blower calcs as I'm a N/A guy...I look for .99-100 kpa and know my filter's not plugged and I'm good.
2. Interestingly, the car was revving up to 5357 under about 1/2 throttle, then FARTPIPE floored it, the RPM's went down to 4307, boost was building to max of 8.2 during that time...up to 4373 as the car spun just a smigen at launch (FARTPIPE compensated by reducing throttle 5% for .130 of a second), then bogged down to 3424 during the launch sequence (all at 100% throttle). Not sure why the RPM's went down when he floored it, clutch in, from where it was at 1/2 throttle...must be some sort of torque management kicking in. My car doesn't do that.
Some data:
0-60 time = 2.195 seconds...though if his DR's are shorter than stock that time is a little off...still...blazing fast...assuming they are short, even using 0-65 mph it's 2.455...handily beating the Veyron.
60-130 time = 6.165 seconds.
1-2 shift time, .195 seconds, 6,564 rpm.
2-3 shift time, .260 seconds, 6,621 rpm.
3-4 shift time, .195 seconds, 6,813 rpm. I wonder if FARTPIPE went clutch in before letting off the gas on 3-4, as you can see the rpm flare up to 6,922 when he was off the gas.
It appears the scanner only reads time in .065 increments...3x.065=.195 so the shifts were likely between .130 seconds and .195 seconds, but below .195 except for the 2-3.
FARTPIPE got about 13 mph wheel spin on the 1-2 shift, 8 mph on the 2-3 shift, and 10 mph on the 3-4. Some ET left on the table there, but I couldn't find any other ET left on the table.
Car was running about 26 degrees timing, IAT at the start of the run was 75, going down to 63 degrees in 4th gear through the end of the run. I'm not familiar if that's the pre-blower IAT or the IAT after compression on the pid that was scanned. My .cfg wouldn't read the knock sensor for some reason but based on the commanded timing line I don't think it had any knock. Interesting that this blown car takes more timing than my N/A car.
FARTPIPE ran it to 6400 in 4th...145 mph....in 10.65 seconds. Feels good to go that fast. I won't type how long it took my car to go 145.
Overall, one of the cleanest runs I've ever reviewed.
Hats off to you FARTPIPE. You drove that car yesterday.
On your video, you'll never do any good until you can get a better burnout. I have a line lock because it saves the rear clutches, but if you're not going to do this all that often, you can learn to do it with only the service brakes. You can practice in a parking lot, dump some water down and get good at it.
Ranger wrote it up better than I can so I'd suggest studying that. In this case I don't think you had your tires wet enough. I always give mine one quick spin on the back end of the water, then go forward a few feet and do the burnout. I also use first gear for burnouts as it's easier to get them spinning and easier on your clutch. You don't want to overheat your clutch doing a burnout, when your tires start to squeal they are gripping so stop the burnout.
And, if you botch a burnout, back into the water, do your spin, and do your burnout again. Don't let them rush you - a run like you had with cold tires is wasted. And worse, if you get wheel hop you could crack your rear which is more likely with cold tires. If you ever get any wheelhop, LET OUT right away and abort the run. Not worth about $6,000+ in breakage. No wheel hop, and your parts will last a good long time.
I'm glad i don't come off as the know it all type, can't stand those guys. however i probably get laughed at a bit at the track to some extent. I'm that guy that showed up at the golf course with a 3000$ driver and a personal caddy and never swung a club in my life
yes Joe, i agree that was a terrible burnout as i kind of hinted on. this was a very early pass. probably my 4th or so. I was burnout king with my trans am but never did a burn out on the vette until the track. i was always trying to protect the rear tires as they are pricey and have nice michelins that I did not want to sacrifice lol. I have gotten much much better at the burnout. she does like to walk rear end left on me during but have been able to correct it, by letting off the brake a bit to allow it forward as i straighten her out.
I have read everything on the ranger website and keep reading it until it becomes imbedded in my brain. wish that dvd was available but you guys helping me first hand will prove far better than any dvd I'm sure of it.
you think I should try to squeeze a few passes in this weekend if the clutch is broken in, or should i just get that final tune in and final as i'm sure the car will be different after the tune and refrain me from having to relearn slightly.
I do have a nice gopro, i'll get a better mount to get the cluster in the video for you guys. and log the runs with HPT. you guys are the best. you don't know how much I appreciate this
Clutch break in is key - don't rush passes before that clutch is broken in.
Ask your tuner if he thinks you should make some passes. For example, when in installed my FAST I'm glad I didn't take it to the track before dyno tuning it as it was very lean on my old tune. It was fine for street duty, closed loop, but I would have been taking risk racing that lean and I wouldn't have known until after I made the first pass.
And soon...you'll the one laughing at those guys with their big blowers and high horsepower dyno sheets on their dash turning 12's.
Nothing better than knowing you can drive your car and beat guys with a lot more HP and money invested. Anybody can write a check; I respect guys who can take the time to actually learn to put their power to use. Of course not everyone can invest that kind of time and I understand that..but it's a sense of accomplishment to knock out a fast pass in a manual car.
yeah i think you're right. better not rush to the track with the new clutch. I get a little eager sometimes lol. really addicted and obsessed on getting better.
Ed gave me the green light for the track after my last tune, the only thing that's changed is now the clutch. i'll get 3-4 good pulls and should be complete on tuning. my a/f is pretty much bang on ed says.
And you're right, when i ran the 11.58, it was a personal best so far, and it did feel so satisfying to bang through the gears and felt like i controlled the outcome. i was so happy cause i ran back to back runs did PB 11.69 was grinning ear to ear then seconds later ran 11.58. i knew i was way off on the cars potential but even .10 better was a much needed pat on the back knowing i was in the right direction
1/4 Mile Noob here!
