glass slipper

Well there you go...that's like taking what people here say as gospel. When it comes to forums, there are very few people who actually know what they're talking about. I would take your PM with a grain of salt.

jimmyb

As a person who feels DCT's are inevitable in the Corvette, I would offer one thing. I hope when the DCT arrives in the C7 that the bugaboo of MANY current DCT's (reviews and internet are LOADED with this complaint), namely jerky low speed operation is cured. In driving a Ferrari 458, the 458's DCT is miles ahead of the old Ferrari F1 in this regard, but it (the automated clutch) still gets faked out sometimes and you (the driver) looks like a 15 year old learning to work a clutch. And finally, pray that any DCT is better (by a mile) than Lamborghini's e-gear, which is positively horrible (probably why you still see so many 3 pedal Lambos).

Jimmy

Caddylac10

You appear to be confused by my comments. They really were straight forward. The fact that GM is going to introduce 8 speeds into their trucks, performance vehicles, and luxury vehicles really isn't new or ground breaking. GM is behind many manufactures in this department; they're just catching up at this point.

glass slipper

Not confused at all...I was talking about your claims of Aisin providing the automatic transmission, pure balderdash. And yes, it's been well known for quite a few years GM is going to make an 8 speed auto...look at the dates on their patents. You didn't give us any new news.
GM is only behind a few manufacturers...name all cars with 8 speed autos. Chrysler has one model with an 8 speed auto outsourced from ZF. Mercedes Benz has a few. I haven't taken the time to do all the research but they aren't behind "many" manufacturers. I'll wait for the list from you...enlighten me.

RonnieC6Z

Good post! I have driven the Ferrari DCT in the California (same DCT as in the 458), using the paddles, and thought the DCT was wonderful. However, in my 2013 Porsche Boxster S, the PDK DCT is even better! I did test drive an LP 560 Lambo with E gear and it was truly a disaster comapred to a good DCT. Although the 2014 C7 will not have a DCT, I would think that in coming years GM will offer one and, when they do, most likely it will be on par with Porsche's PDK.

RonnieC6Z

Let me chime in on this disscussion as to whether a DCT is actually a manual or automatic. I will preface this by saying that my 10 previous Vettes have all been manuals, and the Vette manual is a great tranny.
I have also owned 2 Ferraris, a 360 spider manual and an f430 spider F1 tranny. My 2013 Porsche is a PDK DCT. The answer to all of this stuff is simple. It really does not make a difference, technically, if a DCT is a manual or automatic. To me, it is neither...it is somewhere in between. It certainly in not a manual because there is not a clutch pedal, and because I am always shifting via paddles, it is not an automatic. But who cares! The real issue here is should GM offer a DCT, or some form of automatic, and should they discontinue the manual? My answer would be offer a quality DCT (as most are) and also continue to offer a manual. I think that this idea that manuals are a thing of the past is wrong. Ferrari discontinued the manual with the advent of the 458 Italia because 90% of new Ferrari purchases were F1 or DCT. But why was this? It is for 2 reasons. First of all, the manual shifter in a Ferrari is clunky and really does not present the enjoyment that a manual in a Porsche or Corvette offers. There really is no such think as quick shifting. Secondly, almost all of the new Ferrari buyers never track their cars. They are weekend cruisers, and their owners (most of which are older) have no desire to push in a clutch pedal...they are a different breed. Most could not tell you who Fernando Alonso is. But other than Ferrari, companies such as Chevy, Porsche, Lambo, and others are still selling plenty of manuals.
Chevy absolutely will continue to offer one of the best manuals in the business. Hopefully, the other tranny offered will be a top quality automatic, or even better, a DCT. Case closed? Argument over? (I hope!)

jimmyb

Here you go, I'll enlighten you:

Companies with at least one car (or truck) with 8 speed automatics):
Lexus
M-B
Audi
BMW
Ram Truck
Porsche
Jaguar
Chrysler
Ford

Jimmy

el es tu

sequential gearboxes are termed semi automatic

and they aren't always controlled by computers - many are totally mechanical

some auto manufacturers label them under "automatic" despite the fact that they lack torque converters and allow you to select the gear because yes some electronic controlled semi automatic gearboxes can have the computer select the gears in an "automatic" mode. Also calling the gearboxes automatic is easier for people who lack the knowledge on cars to accept - many would see the term manual or semi automatic and be confused - this could potentially turn away would be customers that just want a pretty car that they can say goes fast.

glass slipper

Thanks for the list. I couldn't find any M-B or Ford models with an 8 speed auto. Ram Truck/Chrysler/Dodge are all the same. The Porsche Panamera and Lexus 460 models use an auto supplied by Aisin while ZF supplies all of the others on your list. So there are two companies who make 8 speed automatic transmissions and 6 car manufacturers out of about 30 using them...not too bad. To say GM is behind "many" is probably an exaggeration but obviously they aren't going to be the first either.

jimmyb

You wanted a list, I gave you one. You asked for 8 speed equipped vehicles, you did not specify that the transmission had to be made by the car maker (I guess I just don't understand what your points are or why you feel the need to be SO aggressive with folks like Caddylac10). And, thirty car makers selling cars in the U.S.....show me that list (and please, don't list Pagani and people like that. Give me 30 makers that will sell at least 1,000 cars in a year).

Jimmy

I guess you just want to be right so...you're right.

glass slipper

I think you took my post wrong...I thanked you for the list and then just did a quick analysis of it. I made no negative comments at all and said "I" couldn't find a Ford/MB acknowledging the possiblity they may exist...it was not a statement of fact. As far as Caddylac10 is concerned, he put out BS plain and simple and I tend to hammer those types pretty hard because that's the only thing they understand. My other option is to keep quiet and let them think I'm stupid enough to believe it...not happening. Some people have a character flaw that makes them spout BS, I have the character flaw of not believing it. Sorry, I'm trying to work on it but it doesn't look promising...it would be better if people just didn't post BS.

Here's your list of 30 car makers:
http://www.autos.ca/general-news/jd-...ality-study/2/

It's 34 to be exact. I did say "about" and I was basing it off of memory on how long this JD Power list was and I was pretty close to the number on the list. However, this list is of car "brands" which I didn't remember so I'll do an analysis of my list. Brands that are the same company are Cadillac, GMC, Chevy, and Buick; Honda and Acura; Toyota, Lexus, and Scion; Nissan and Infiniti; Chrysler, Dodge, and Ram; M-B and Smart; Ford and Lincoln; and you could make a case for Hyundai/Kia as well as Audi/VW and BMW/Mini. So there are 23 or 20 companies selling cars in the USA depending on how you look at it. I could say I meant brands when I said manufacturers but that wouldn't be true, I was talking companies and guessed at the number from memory of the JD Power list above. Still, "about 30" isn't far off from 23 and clearly I was estimating, not stating fact.

jimmyb

So...after all of this, what is the definition of an "Automatic transmission"? IMO, an "Automatic" transmission shifts gears automatically (makes sense to me).

What is the definition of a "Manual transmission"? Again, IMO, a "Manual" transmission must be shifted manually (MANually, again, makes sense to me).

You can talk about torque converters all you want, but if a transmission will shift automatically, then it's an "AUTOMATIC". It's funny that "normal" cars with DCT's (Ford/VW) call their DCT's "automatics" and the sports car makers call their DCT's "Automated manuals", which I guess is the car version of "Jumbo shrimp" or "hot water heater". I don't care if they're called DCT/F1/e-gear/PDK/whatever, no clutch pedal, it's an AUTOMATIC.

Jimmy

John T

Di anybody see Pratt and Millers " Master Shift " ? Electronic steering wheel paddle conversion for the manual trans C6 ? It was shown at SEMA

The MasterShift people developed this with the help of Pratt & Miller but it is not P&M 's product

JustinStrife

SCM_Crash

Wow, I missed out on this thread... I was only gone a day.


The DCT can only be described as an automatic because the gear clutching and gear changes happen 100% without human interaction. When the request for a gear to change comes, the transmission does 100% of the work. No different from when a standard torque converter / planetary gear train automatic transmission is manually down shifted to a lower gear. This is a request for the transmission to "do work". But there isn't any human interaction involved. Thus, the transmission is automatic.

It is in this case that the DCT is an automatic.

As an example excluding the DCT, a manual valve body transmission is still an automatic transmission. Just like a DCT, it will not "do work" until requested by the driver. However, once a gear change is requested, just like the DCT, it will perform all the operations necessary to change the gear.



Except it wouldn't matter if there's an auto mode or not. If the transmission changes gears for you, even if you're the one to request the gear change, it still did the work of the gear change for you.


The problem here is that you're confusing design with function.

It doesn't matter what the physical design of the transmission is. If the human interaction isn't there to physically change the gears and operate the clutch to engage the transmission's function, then the transmission would have to do such work on its own or simply not work at all.

While the DCT, ASG, and SMG transmissions have a manual design as far as physical gear configuration, the function of the transmission remains that there isn't any human interaction during the gear shift.

Design and function are not the same. They cannot be called a manual transmission. At most they can be called a "semi-manual" transmission because the request to change gears is often left to the operator. But this is no different from a manual valve body transmission. Would you call a manual valve body transmission a manual, though? In function its exactly the same as a DCT, but it still has a fluid torque converter and a planetary gear train.

glass slipper

And here's the problem we're having. I'm not confusing anything, this is simply a matter of perspective. From one perspective (design), a DCT is a manual transmission. From the other perspective (function), it's an automatic. If you'll go back to my post that started this circular argument, you'll see that I said what I just stated above....that it's a manual transmission that operates automatically. One guy got bent out of shape and started crying like a baby because he couldn't play with his gearshifter anymore and this whole mess started over what amounts to semantics. I have never denied it functions as an automatic, I clearly stated it does by saying it'll make all the automatic transmission guys happy. My mistake was in assuming it would make all the manual transmission guys happy because its power transfer design is based on a manual, therefore there is no torque converter or messy hydraulics to skew the driving experience for them...I admitted my mistaken assumption to the one guy who's really pissed about the possiblity of a DCT in the Corvette and moved on.

In the industry, a DCT/DSG/etc is called an automated manual transmission...I've stated this several times too. Personally, I thought I covered the both design and function angles. It's clear when I'm talking about the physical characteristics of the DCT that my perspective is design, I've constantly acknowledged it's automated function. I'm not sure why others can't acknowledge the DCT has its design from a manual. I'm glad you can see the difference but you should go back to my original post...you'll see I do too, thanks for the effort though.

JustinStrife

If you're referring to me on the crying glass, you have absolutely no reading comprehension in your skillset. I never said GM should stay away from DCT for the Corvette. I'm fine with them getting rid of the normal automatic and replacing it with a DCT. I dont' care, because I dont' buy those kind of cars anyway. Just keep the Manual transmission option for those who want it. There's a big difference. Don't take away the option. You can have your DCT. I dont' care.

SCM_Crash

Fair enough. That's what bothered me too.

DREAMERAK

, except the manual should be the standard transmission, those who want a DCT can pay for it.

I Bin Therbefor

"For decades, automatic transmissions had three or four speeds, which were deemed sufficient to provide reasonable acceleration and fuel economy. Then came the five speed automatic, which was standard issue on most cars until just a few years back.

Then, the race for more gears in the transmission began in earnest. First it was the six-speed automatic, followed by the seven speed and eight speed automatic. Embraced by Chrysler, ZF will now supply eight-speed (and even nine-speed) transmissions to the automaker for numerous 2013 products.

Hyundai even proclaimed it was developing a 10-speed gearbox in house, which was followed by an announcement from Ford and GM that they would jointly develop nine and 10-speed gearboxes. The race for transmission superiority, it seemed, would be never ending.

Now, Automotive News Europe (subscription required) quotes ZF CEO Stefan Sommer as saying nine speeds are the “natural limit.” In Sommer’s words, “There is no hard line, but you have to consider the law of diminishing returns. The question is whether adding even more gears makes sense.”

That sentiment is echoed by Julio Caspari, president of ZF’s North American division, who believes that the race for more gears is driven by marketing and not engineering. As proof, Caspari says that there’s only an 11-percent gap in efficiency between today’s most-efficient gearboxes and a theoretically perfect ideal.

We’d be the first to point out that more gears equal more complexity, higher cost and, potentially, more points of failure. Unless someone can conclusively prove that ten speeds are better than nine, we say let’s turn our attention to other areas, like making more power from less displacement."

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-natural-limit