I am sure they put this feature in to provide the ability to stop premature clutch wear,etc for non-driving bastards

 

Tadge stated that in testing the LT1 showed even more torque than the current LS7. For those that hammer their shifts, the ARM can really go a long way toward saving drive line shock, too.

 

Aaron, you're turning blue! As someone who goes on track and likes to drive, you're exactly the guy that should get what we're saying but dont. I'm not arguing that I'm faster with out abs. What I'm arguing is that its use on the track is cheating. What pros use on the track is totally irrelevant in our conversation because none of us are professionally paid drivers who need to use it. You can feel like a pro slamming your abs into each corner, but all that says to me is that you are not interested in really learning how to drive or practicing the art. You wouldn't have any of the worries listed above if you knew what you were doing and enjoyed true enthusiast driving. You are lying to yourself about your ability!

 

For those of you saying that you do not like the idea of a rev-matching transmission, you need to drive a car with it before you pass judgement.

I personally love the fact that I can INSTANTLY shove the lever into a lower gear and never have to worry about upsetting the chassis or being jerky with the throttle. It's a perfectly matched shift, EVERY TIME.

One of the things you guys might not be thinking about is speed. As soon as you press the clutch pedal and begin the motion of moving the gear lever, the car senses what gear you are going into and revs the engine accordingly. No matter how fast I try, I simply cannot shift into a lower gear faster than the computer can rev-match the engine. It is simply not possible for a human to be that fast. You might get close when you are driving full throttle on the track, but think about around-town driving or when you're just puttering about. If you need to quickly grab a lower gear or 2 (say, to beat a yellow light) you can literally just push in the clutch and slam the gear lever into the gear you want and get a perfectly smooth shift.

 

I grew up as part of Generation Tech. I went from playing this as a child (I was born in 85)

To This

People in my age group get our kicks from playing with Tech. (also the stupid forum timed sign out sucks I had a much better response than the one I'm about to give) Cars have to be as much Tech **** as they are Car **** to keep our interest for long.

To give you an example I ''settled'' on the audio system for my C4. It has Blue Tooth, Pandora, HD Radio, USB device compatibility, MP3 capable cd player, an aux input for older devices, multiple audio profiles. It has more functionality than the stereo aspect of what you get in a C6 and I -still- consider it settling. My next step up, is going to have a blu ray player in the dash with the otherwise same functionality of what I have now in it.

Now that we've established I'm into Tech ****, lets delve into ABS, and Rev Match vs not.

For me it's a safety thing. Sure I can drive without ABS. It's not the end of the world 99 percent of the time during daily driving life. That 1 percent of the other time however? Yeah.

Not only this, but honestly in my opinion it takes far far more effort to be a hot shoe in an ABS car than one that isn't. You have to be extremely consistent with your line, and know exactly where you can and can not trail brake. You find out really fast where you are fast or slow on a track when you aren't worrying about the brakes locking down. If you're riding the brakes too long you're still riding them too long. If you're braking early it's even more detrimental to your time. Also, I don't know about post Gen 4 F Body ABS systems, but they aren't fool proof, you can still flat a tire if you are too aggressive. It doesn't take nearly as much to hit the braking limits of a non ABS car in terms of effort applied. You're artificially limiting how fast you can go around a track (which lets face it if you're tracking the car that's what you really care about. Is getting the absolute most out of the car) without ABS on.

Now let's talk about rev matching. It's not like the clutch is applying itself for you, nor is it picking when you're shifting. If you miss a gear you're still boned for it on your time at the stripe. You're still doing all the work, you're still deciding when the car's changing gears and what gear it's going into.

For me, I get as much of a giggle out of going Stupid Fast as I do actually driving the car. Providing the car is giving me lots of feedback, I love it. (which is why I hate Audis, and cars like the GTR. You're in a cacoon a nice safe, warm, soundless, and feedback less cacoon) Hell in the next year or so I'm probably going to pick up an aftermarket TCS system for my C4. I'm probably going to go with the company that did them for F1 cars that someone on this forum was nice enough to link me in the C4 forum when I was asking about upgrading my car to having ASR. The tunability of that thing is incredible. Which is something else I enjoy. Tinkering with Tech. I'll probably have it set to minimum or Off completely on most track days, but for daily driving I'll probably have it set to mid. And if one of my friends is going to be driving the car I'll probably set it to max so he doesn't hurt the car

Now, onto the safety aspect. I don't even mean just myself and worrying about missing the corner etc. I mean for everyone involved. Lets have 2 scenarios here that are similar but with one critical difference. You have some putz who's in a 90s Viper. (no ABS, TCS, Or rev matching) You're coming up on him in your pride and joy that you disabled your ABS on because you feel that's ''cheating''.

Said Putz fumbles the down shift, just at the start of turn in, and slaps the car loose with you right on his heels. He panics and slams the brakes and keeps going right on down towards the apex of the corner, with you less than ten feet away from him. Your choices are A, hit him or hope he goes off before you hit him because there's no way you can stop the car in time, or B hope you don't lock up your brakes and send your precious pride and joy hurtling towards a tirewall.

Now lets have scenario B.
A Putz in a roided up 370 Z with ABS, and Rev Matching. Putz misses the shift with you on his heels. And your pride and joy having -just- ABS. The ten foot distance still applies. Said Putz is suddenly one hell of alot slower than you are. You can simply deep end your braking, and not end up leaving the track and sling around him.

I mean really which one sounds more appealing? I know which I'd rather have happen. The ''pure car thing'' died in the 80s. If we all wanted to be free of the evils of electronic assists we'd all be driving Muscle Cramps, on bias ply tires. Because Fuel Injection, yes Fuel Injection is even an assist. After all due to the instant throttle response of FI, you no longer have to worry about the delay between mashin the pedal and when the engine is going to start revving up and putting power down. You don't have to worry about flooding the car out, at all on a cold winters day if you haven't kept up with tuning. To say nothing of the evil sins of Unidirectional tires and asymmetrical tread design which allow ''everyone'' to properly manage grip levels around a track!

Guys who suck, are still going to suck with a C7 or other car with rev matching and ABS, and TCS. If anything the gap between them and yourself once you adjust is going to be even wider, and everyone will be safer. How is this not a win win?

 

^Agreed and you'll still need to know how to drive a Corvette. Even with the new systems, its not going to be a point and shoot car like an Evo or GT-R. Not in the least bit.

The new Viper got stability and traction control and its still scary as hell even to pro drivers, but its turned down just a notch.

 

Corvettes come already with mechanical rev-matching system - the gear synchronizer. So don't be too proud of your heel & toe expertise. You're getting a lot of help.

In theory, a good enough rev-match gizmo (with the ability to drop revs fast on upshifts - perhaps requiring an aluminum flywheel) would allow a return to crash 'boxes. A really good one and you could power shift both directions.

 

Aaron, I didnt get a lot of what you said, but you missed an important point. I never said I disable ABS, I said I dont consciously use it. Obviously its still (and should be) there in a panic situation. If you are following a less experienced driver 10 feet away on the racetrack, thats a little like asking to get hit!

My opinion is: the more these cars drive for us, the less fun it is. Clearly some technologies are implemented well, like ABS, because its there when you need it but invisible when you dont = PEREFCT new tech implementation. My main problem with rev match is that it reduces the fun for someone like me that doesn't need or want it. To be forced to turn it off in a driver-oriented car like the vette is a slap in the face and a wholly disheartening nod to whats in store for the next generations.

I dont want a video game, I want a sports car. By continually added technology, smoothing, quietening, and refining, it makes these cars less visceral and lacking of character (the noise, vibration, feel, style, how the car makes you feel..). They become machines of perfection and limit seeking instead of cars which you want to give a nickname, slap a smile on your face and reward you for a spirited driving job well done.

I'd much rather have a car that was fun as hell to drive and power slide at 40 than one that can do 200 mph - I'll power slide all the time, but when am I going to hit 200mph exactly?! What is the point, other than useless bragging rights? There is a real dichotomy happening in the sports car world - its basically technology vs character. Unfortunately, character is losing.

I sort of figured all this out after buying faster and faster cars over the years, and what I realized was the cars are not more fun the faster you go, they're just more dangerous to derive the fun out of them. I am a motorcycle rider as well. One bike I own is a 1000cc beast of a machine that will out accelerate pretty much anything and can get you into trouble quick! I must treat it with respect, and generally I find myself putt-putting around on 1/8th throttle because any more, even in first gear, and I'm breaking a speed limit. The second bike I own is the polar opposite of the first. It has roughly 10% of the power my fast bike has, about 15hp to the wheel and the 0-60 is about the same as a minivan. It shimmys badly at 75mph, has frame bits that, although new, are handmade and bent and askew. Its a bike made in India called a royal enfield. Its a total POS, but guess what. Every time I get on that bike I'm smiling away. I can nail the throttle, fly through the gears and when it starts to max out, I look down and the thing is doing 45mph. But, I feel like a motogp rider, the noise, the vibration, the sense of speed, decent cornering is all there. Its this feel that made me put 7x the miles on it than my fast bike.

I think its only when you've owned a lot of sports cars that you realize that fun is more important than #'s. I used to wonder why people would drive older slower cars. Now I totally get it. Looking forward, I dont see any cars under 70K that will give me the feeling I'm looking for. Its actually depressing, because I like buying new toys. For the last two years, I've seriously saved and planned to pre-order a c7, but based on what I've read, I'm going to hold off and drive it before buying. My guess is that I'll do the same thing I did with the c6 and pass for something else that ticks all the right boxes.

 

If you're deep braking at all you're probably using ABS If you're turning in at high speed in a corner on the brakes you're probably using them and not even know it.

Some cars have really seamless ABS systems.

So what about mechanical synchros? Every Vette C5 and up (The C4 even has them on the ZF6.. not that they are worth a damn mind), all Gen 4 birdies and Camaros have them. That's a mechanical rev match, heel and toe on those cars is almost completely un necessary. It's been gone since at least the early 90s as a necessary driving skill. I know the C5 and C6 both have T56s and IIRC their synchros are even better than the ones in the former F Body cars. All this has done, is give a more precise rpm synch than the mechanical system. It's also there to greatly reduce wear on the synchros.

When a car breaks loose on a mechanically assisted trans it's because either the synchros are worn out, or because he went down faster than the mechanical synchs could catch up to. (Ie being at high rpm in the gear they were in, and then trying to go down immediately 2 steps)

All clutches are also all hydraulic assisted. Should we go back to full mechanical clutches because they make working a clutch too easy, and too fast?

If you've ever driven a non hydraulic clutch car, the answer to that would be a resounding no.

Rev Matching doesn't change the experience fundamentally. Cabin noise, and steering feedback do however. which is largely what makes the Audi, and GTR so utterly soul less to drive. You press the pedals, and if you're lucky you might get to hear some engine noise. You disable the TCS and ASM systems, and the car still sticks like glue. It still feels heavy, (because the car is) due to the AWD. Having driven sport bikes with a Power Commander (it's an electronic control that gives you Clutchless Upshifts) I can tell you the experience was still visceral. Even going relatively slow on a local range (as I'm not nearly as good at riding as I am driving I babied it abit) I was still giggly afterwards.

I like my cars loud and raucous providing they have the engine note to make it work. The first thing I do for pretty much every car I have ever owned with the exception of my 3.8 Bird was to find a performance exhaust. (which was my 2nd favorite stick shift car that I drove. My first was a 97 Z28) Then I spent weeks, searching through various vids on youtube comparing exhaust notes before making a purchase decision. Because sound is one of the best inputs of a car in my opinion. Headers, and an X pipe, high flow cats, and mufflers, turned my automatic C4 from a tame cruiser to, make your hair stand on end and get your heart racing thunder making bullet, even if I'm obeying (mostly) all the traffic laws. And I haven't even put a stall converter, trans brake or B&M Ratchet Shifter in yet. I can't wait till I'm done with it, because it's mine by thunder I tuned it I souped it up and I know the car will take everything I can throw at it at that point.

My point is, just because we're getting new tech toys on the car doesn't mean the car will be diluted some how for it. Hell just look at the SRT Viper. They allegedly tamed it with electronics, and yet it still handles like crap and scares the crap out of people that drive it

Your bike: see for me that's not fun. I have a bicycle that will do 45. And I love it, for it's sheer simplicity. But I also like sport bikes, well sport touring bikes specifically (I have fairly long legs for my height). I've long long ago come to the realization that even a stock Gen 3 Camaro is more than fast enough for daily driving and the occasional track car. That being said, it's not enough for me. That's partly why I got the C4 after that idiot newspaper man killed my 96 Bird (which I enjoyed immensely more than my Camaro). I like knowing that the car has more potential in it, than I can give it until I get really good and comfortable in it. It gives me something to strive for.

 

Uhhh...heel and toe is completely necessary with those cars on a road course. Try to drive bomb into Turn 10 at Road Atlanta without rev matching...

 

And that's a ludicrously fast straight into a really tight corner :P
I haven't been to RA yet. I'm debating between VIR or RA for my first full on road course excursion. Most of my experience has been on a local range that I have regular access to (it helps that I work there), some autocrossing, and going up and down the Blue Ridge parkway.

The synchros work pretty well in the driving I'd done up to this point.
I'll also give a quick prop to the Nascrap cars, they don't even heel and toe around a road course anymore due to the way they built the transmissions, and they don't have electronic rev matching. (Which is part of the reason the ''road course ringers'' like Boris Said will never ever win another one )

 

Really? People in my age group got their kicks from creating the "tech" that you grew up playing with. We didn't have a previous generation of wizards dropping technology in our laps as we were toddlers, so that we could grow up playing with it and then congratulating ourselves on how clever we were for being able to use technology that was purposely-designed to be easy to use in the first place. We grew up learning to solve difficult technical problems and developing skills that would allow us to use those solutions to further the level of technology. We actually enjoy facing challenges, as President Kennedy once said, "not because they are easy, but because they are hard". The honing and use of a long developed skill (manual rev matching and playing a piano are just two examples) can be immensely satisfying.

I don't need any explanations about what ARM is or what it can do for me. I already know...and for the above reasons, I'm not interested. I choose to do it for myself because I enjoy doing it. If I could buy the car without it, I would. Hell, I'd even pay extra to not have to deal with it.

I no longer expect everyone to understand my reasons. For the many who don't understand them, ARM is just another free convenience dropped in their laps by those mysterious wizards...and geez, aren't they great for just accepting/embracing it, without question, because it makes their lives even easier. And, when they get get old too, they'll probably embrace those electric wheel chairs with open arms as well, because then they won't have to go through all the needless trouble to walk any more...

My parting thought, for those who feel as I do: since GM bothered to provide a switch for us to use, maybe they also provided a fuse for us to pull. Then, we'll just have to get used to staring at a warning light in that new Buck Rodgers dash display...

 

Lol 1analguy.. I'm so glad at least one other person totally gets me. WTF is wrong with this forum, where did all the real drivers go?!

 

I like the feature. You hot shoes out there, I guess I'm a bit jealous of your Michael Schumacher abilities. I do practice heel and toeing, but if you get it wrong, your f***ed. I do not like technology for its' own sake, but this has a purpose... for me.

 

Why do you need a fuse when ARM defaults as off?

You guys sound ridiculous.

 

Ref regarding Rev Matching: "To be forced to turn it off in a driver-oriented car like the vette is a slap in the face and a wholly disheartening nod to whats in store for the next generations".

The good news is it is "Off" by default according to GM, you don't need to worry about it unless you want/need to use it.

 

The 7-speed manual's Active Rev Match feature is defaulted to 'off' unless the driver turns it on using the paddles

 

So you are using bias ply tires......

 

You real drivers must stick to bias plus then since they are technology for drivers..

 

Your not alone as you think