And we're developing games your chump crusty butt could never even dream about. The founder of Crytek? Is 35, which is the norm for the industry. By the way we're the ones pushing software development to it's limits and beyond. We are the ones designing new computing hardware, phones, programs. The stuff your generation created, has as much in common with modern gaming and computing, as a carburetor does to Direct Injection.

You can look it up on Google if you don't believe me, which by the way was designed by guys that are under 40.

By the way, that PC you're on? If it's Windows 7, it's designed by guys in my age group.

Did you build your PC? Have you tailored your OS by sifting through the EXE commands? If not, to either then I've got more tech know how than you too. (As a funny side note, if Microsoft came out with an OS in the future that delivered the exact same functionality and tweaks that I did to my computer, with just a couple of mouse clicks on the start menu. You wouldn't see me going on the microsoft forum whining about how ''everything is too easy now'')

We're the tech wizards. Not you. So maybe you need to reevaluate your sense of entitlement. Right along with the other 99 percent of your generation.

I will never understand the mind set of ''zomg now anyone can do what I do! because of technology!". Especially when that's just not the case. If you're really worth a damn, you'll still be better than Joe Putz that took his car out to be a rock star. For that matter, what's wrong exactly with making things more accessible to everyone? Incase you haven't noticed the domestic car enthusiast market is dying and has been for some time, in no small part due to the cliquish nature of the hobby, the expenses involved, and the skill sets required if you're doing more than just cruising.
If you're really that hot of a shoe then there's no way in hell any of us ''non real drivers'' should be able to touch you anyway. So why are you so afraid? If all you ''real drivers'' are so much better than us ''non real drivers'' tell me, why are you up in arms over Rev Matching? After all if you're such a hot shoe, a little old thing like Rev Matching (which by the way there are transmissions out there that do this through pure mechanics, like the Nascar Transmissions for example), vs your heel and toeing shouldn't close the gap between us on a track.
Or maybe you really aren't as good as you think you are, some part of your subconscious knows this and you'd rather not have that knowledge slap you one in the face, when some of us ''non real drivers'' get abit braver on the track and dust your cars.
And by the time you're fully ready to be put in a home, my generation will likely at least have developed fully functioning cybernetic limb replacement. And I bet you'd be one of the first in line so you could still ''heel and toe'' at 100+

 

Well written!

 

OK, you're still not getting it...

Gosh, that's interesting! Of all of the things that your generation has accomplished, you keep choosing improved video games to wave at us? Video games were created (by the generation previous to mine) as an entertaining way to waste time, a way to mindlessly loose yourself in a "universe" that someone else has created.

This goes straight back to the core reason that I posted the original question regarding the popularity of ARM. I wanted a simple discussion between the two camps on this issue...between the camp that enjoys learning to do things for themselves, and the camp that prefers to have others do things for them. It now appears that the "do-it-for-me" camp is wildly prevalent. Question answered. There is no point to further argument here as to whether or not this is good thing, and I am stopping now.

I don't own a PC. Even in retirement, I don't have time for all the re-booting and maintenance that PC ownership requires.

The generational argument that we've gotten into is unproductive and unintended. For my part in it, I apologize. Each generation's accomplishments are built upon those of the preceding generations, and that will always be true.

Once again, any comments made regarding "heel-and-towing", being (or not being) a "hot shoe", etc., were made by others, not me. I only espoused a preference for doing my own rev matching, and race track-type heel-and-towing is not a requirement for doing so.

If nevillej is correct, and the default condition of ARM is "off", then I'm completely satisfied because I won't have to fight with it every time I drive my car...and it will still be available to those who want it. Win/win...

 

I owned two 370z's both manual, and the option CAN be turned on/off. Its actually convenient when you just want to cruise in it and not feel any jerks between shifts if you want to be a "lazy driver." I personally don't have issues with heel and toe and I almost always drove with the rev match system off. However i will mention, if your cruising at 40-50mph (any speed for that matter) and want to race from that point onwards, having the rev match manual system "on" is actually advantageous when compared to double-clutching. The rpm's literally blip instantaneously to the perfect rpm depending on what gear you switched it into. Double-clutching takes a second, and by that time, you could be already accelerating with rev match manual.

 

Wooooooooooooooohooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

For those who don't understand this, no explanation is possible. For those who DO, no explanation is necessary.

 

We've lapped you and are approaching in your rear view for another pass. Move it on over, gramps.

jas

 

Don't worry, he's out having fun with his bias play, non-synchro, carbureted, manual steering, manual brakes having car. Don't forget about the hand crank! So much fun!

 

I'm a retro gamer, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that most video games are being made easier. If they are too challenging for most people, they won't sell as many copies. This is extremely apparent in games that have newer sequels like starcraft, diablo, and even mario. They made all the sequels to these games easier to appeal to the masses because most people are just too dumb to beat them or be competitive. They don't care about the enjoyment of the game that real gamers get from the difficulty. They would rather make it easier so they can sell more copies. It's always about money. I'd like to see kids these days try to even come close to beating half the SNES games I played back in the day. Technology is making society as a whole dumber, and that is a fact.

 

Saber, this is true too! Kids these days.. Geesch. The younger generations want it all for no work. I'll be checking out right around the time the world hits the fan, yay!

 

Does he have to yell, "CONTACT!" when trying to fire it up, like they did with older planes? ...

jas

 

I never understood how people complain about the "nannies" associated with new technologies, yet they forget they are using power steering, power brakes, abs etc. And as you guys have pointed out, even going back to hand crank starting. I'm not saying it's wrong but if you really want that raw driving experience, there are plenty of good C2's or even C3's that can be purchased for a lot less than a new C7. No star wars digital dashboards or anything. No climate control or even crash protection. I personally prefer the new stuff and all the pleasures they bring. It's just as much an experience to driving with all these technologies, it's just different. And I like it.

 

I suppose there are two definitions of character that are dividing the sentiments of different responses in this thread: Character as defined by the feel of the car, the rumble that makes one feel the car is going fast even if it isn't (as in days of old), the extra manipulation of controls that require manual input whether it is slower or not does not matter and wrestling that is required of a less than perfect suspension. Then there is the character of actual performance - the quick, smooth acceleration that allows one to pass everyone on the straight to arrive at the turn and threshold brake at the very limit without another car impeding them, to negotiate a turn at maximum lateral G while the suspension is firmly planted, to concentrate on the quick building of speed without worrying about hitting the right gear shift while the lateral G is pulling your body away from the shifter and to do this all day long without worrying about abuse of the equipment and too extreme temperatures. Personally, I'll go with the latter. I much prefer to work on driver character and performance.

 

I'll take the Vette over the Miata any day.

 

Reason why I picked games? Because it's the most obvious visual demonstration of what people in my age group have done to improve tech. The sheer power involved on the hardware side alone has come by leaps and bounds which is one of the more obvious implications. That ''time waster'' has single handedly driven Hardware and Software development faster and farther than anything that has come before it. Which has had obvious benefits across the board.

Also it's been proven that games actually encourage higher level thinking in people that play them vs people that don't. It strengthens the problem solving centers of the brain, along with the hand eye coordination centers, especially for competitive play.

Like Google, Phones, pretty much all modern software (including real fun stuff like Engine Building Software) Also that ''time waster'' makes more money for this country than Hollywood does, by a comfortable margin. To say nothing of advances in medicine that are just right around the corner.

Enjoying tech, and tinkering with tech, let alone wanting to focus more on the actual you know... driving aspects of driving a car is hardly wanting people to do that for you.

I -am- a DIY guy. I do my own brakes, oil changes, transmission fluid filter jobs, differentials, plug swaps, electrical work etc. When it comes time to tear an engine down I'm not the least bit phobic of doing it either. I get alot of kick out of taking things apart and making them better. What I don't get a kick out of so much is breaking stuff. I certainly wouldn't want to break something I spent alot of time tweaking to my preferences, just because a momentary loss in concentration. Or is that a sense of Entitlement rather than Common Sense?

You don't own a PC so what are you doing, posting on this forum on your smart phone? You can thank us for that too by the way.

Oh and I can't remember the last time I had to format a HDD. Not since XP SP2 at any rate. Again you can thank my generation for building stable, reliable faster pcs than the piles of junk the generation of yesteryear built. I only scan the computers I work on once a month. Heck I only defrag the thing once every six months tops.

Also I really recommend getting a PC if you're into car building at all. There are some incredible dyno sim, engine building programs out there. Let alone, the ability for some cars to tune your car, via your laptop if you know what you're doing.
The $ you'll save on engine builds more than pays for the cost of a cheap computer and the software.

Saying that not wanting to heel and toe is, akin to not being a real driver is insulting in of itself. There's a hell of alot more to racing around a track than heel and toe. I'd much rather focus more on the practical side of things, like maintaining your line, especially if you're going to be deep braking, rolling into the throttle at the perfect moment, and actually nailing the shift points in the first place.

Someone lacking those above skills and having a rev matching car, will get utterly smoked by someone with those skills, even if they're driving an Older Automatic car that doesn't even have a stall converter.

There's so much more to a car and making it fast around a track than heel and toe. Stuff that after a while on the track you don't even think about anymore. But for a newbie, or casual guy, are still concepts that are incredibly difficult to master. (even on the pro level it's hard to be 100 percent or even 80 percent perfect)

It's the stuff you don't think about anymore that you're forgetting in the experience.

It's stuff that makes up so much more of the experience, especially in a car that gives good feedback. If they took away Rev Match on all cars, but instead had the cars auto pick your lines, brake points, and told you when to shift basically turning the car into a rollercoaster with more ponies. I can guarantee that you'd notice it a hell of alot faster than Rev Matching. Speaking of things most people don't think about, alot of C6 ZO6 guys seem to be dead focused on 2 specs of the C7 which aren't even official yet. Weight and HP. They forget about things like, steering feel, chassis stiffness, pad surface area, and feedback through the chassis. Weight and HP don't necessarily make a car faster. If it did, we'd all be driving Fieros with Turbo LS3s stuffed in with no changes otherwise to the car. It's the intangibles that make or break a car.

If someone was on the track using Rev Match and they beat you, they picked excellent lines etc. And you didn't know they had Rev Matching On till after the race, would you suddenly feel the other guy was just a no talent hack? That's the impression I'm getting from the "rev matching is wrong!" crowd.

 

I dont think you're description is appropriate for the latter. To me, your "latter" is technology, not character. I have yet to drive a really technical car that also had my definition of character. The reason is that the current trend for increased technology actually engineers the character out. I've read that perhaps Ferrari is the only company that has managed to balance both well successfully.

Its like this.. lets say you went to a theme based restaurant, lots of energy and color, and at the door, there was a man in a big goofy dog suit that bounced around and opened the door and welcomed you in the most joyful way. The kids love it! Lots of character!

Then you take the same scenario, and you get a robotic arm that quickly opens the door, welcomes you in a robotic voice, and catches grandma when she trips over the door jam and sterilizes the kids hands as they walk by. A perfect execution of customer service and technology, but 0 character. No fun, just perfection.

Thats kind of how I feel about the two dichotomies. For me, the most simple description is: fun vs perfection. Perfection can be fun too, but not as fun.

 

To those who keep wanting to drag me back to bias-ply tires, engine cranks, sealed-beam tungsten lighting, etc...I say OK, let us all instead stay in the present and approach the argument from your side. Doesn't it seem odd that we're all here arguing about the best way to enjoy or utilize a manual transmission when there is an automatic transmission option. No clutch pedal or shift lever to distract us, never a missed shift, etc. Yet here we are, all of us, preferring to shift for ourselves (for various reasons). When you look at it this way, why can't you understand that there are a few knot-heads like myself who, for some unfathomable reason, feel differently than you do about ARM? Do we all have to agree with you about everything in order to avoid your ridicule?

The rest of your post was quite well reasoned, but I'm not in the "rev matching is wrong!" crowd. I have nothing against it...I'm just not interested in using it.

 

Oh yeah, I know the character of performance as well as the character of wrestling a vehicle. I am just not as quick to be subjectively purist as you. I enjoy my 'slightly' modified C4 on the street and my 'moderately' modified C5 on the track where performance counts. Having driven tractor trailers, furniture vans, farm tractors, motorcycles, snowmobiles, jet skies, airplanes (tailwheel and tricycle), inboards/outboards and the occasional luxury vehicle I know a little about character. When it comes to track work give me the new C7 and all of its improvements. I want a car that accelerates without upsetting the suspension while it is on the edge and brakes 'right now' without seeming to want to change direction. I don't expect active handling to do this, I expect good engineering to do it. I turn off A/H at the track in the C5. The good thing for those that prefer a more conventionally performing vehicle is the ample market of previous corvette models. For those of us that like performance on the track, GM has the answer for us with the C7. And while they are at it, the sales should continue strong because they have also made it user friendly in the choices available for the individual driver to program. Those guys at Corvette are so smart!

 

I think most of us here have driven earlier automatics, and have plenty of ''fond memories'' of it deciding what gear was really best... with it resulting in it being the totally wrong gear for the job *cough* 700 R 4 *cough* sorry I had something caught in my throat.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting to use ARM. What I do have a problem with is some of the attitudes in this thread towards guys like myself that would use ARM, that some how we're not ''real drivers'' (whatever that means), or that we want the magic sky wizards to do everything for us.