Corvette's Rival
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
You're like that kid in school that keeps getting his butt kicked but keeps coming back for more lol.
Quit drinking your delusional Kool-Aid and throwing your perceptional BS on some folks that don't know any better!! I drive a SL that cost $100K new and some of those qualities don't even apply to my car let alone a 3 Series. My Assistant drives a 3 Series and we take her car sometimes to some of my meetings and if you really believe all that you're praising about that car then you are absolutely clueless! I can give you even more examples if you want.
They say love is blind and this is a perfect example! Anyways it's pointless debating with you cause you can fool yourself into thinking day is night.
And why are you on this site anyways??? To spill you're fallacies or just cause a stir?
Quit drinking your delusional Kool-Aid and throwing your perceptional BS on some folks that don't know any better!! I drive a SL that cost $100K new and some of those qualities don't even apply to my car let alone a 3 Series. My Assistant drives a 3 Series and we take her car sometimes to some of my meetings and if you really believe all that you're praising about that car then you are absolutely clueless! I can give you even more examples if you want.
They say love is blind and this is a perfect example! Anyways it's pointless debating with you cause you can fool yourself into thinking day is night.
And why are you on this site anyways??? To spill you're fallacies or just cause a stir?
I'm here because I like discussing cars, and I like gathering information about the C7 and sharing it too.
And my challenge applies to you too: What was your personal best lap time on a track (which track?) in a bone stock street car? Do you think you know better what constitutes a good driver's car than Tadge Juechter, Johnny O'Connell, Randy Pobst, Chris Harris, Gordon Murray, and engineers from BMW, Lotus, Ferrari, and Lamborghini?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,886
Likes: 1,255
From: Carmel CA
So, what is your defense of your red Italian cars from Maranello against your Porsche friends?
What position is BMW in? They're about to come online with a very different type of sports car, the i8. If projections are correct, they'll be selling close to 30k electric i3 cars per year. BMW have slightly different motives and targets than GM, which is understandable considering they are not GM.
The Ultimate Driving Machine tagline had nothing to do with lap times. You're so stuck up on lap times, I have to ask (and this goes to the other BMW bashers out there): What was your personal best lap time on a track (which track?) in a bone stock street car?
With regard to the Nordschleife, let's not forget the little matter of power and torque the ZR1 has. The LFA's standard tires are the same type that come on a BMW 1-Series and while they are fatter than the BMW's, they aren't fatter than the ZR1's. The Nurburgring Edition's is the same type that was originally optional on the old GT-R (which was generally chucked in favor of the faster Dunlops). In independent testing by Germany's Sport Auto, the Nurburgring Edition with its upgraded aero, suspension, and tires, was only 4s faster than the standard car, which matched the time of the ZR1 at the hands of the very same driver. Chris Harris, who has driven many cars on the Nordschleife (some even while racing during VLN events and the 24H itself), said the LFA was the best car he's ever driven there. Fastest != best.
What position is BMW in? They're about to come online with a very different type of sports car, the i8. If projections are correct, they'll be selling close to 30k electric i3 cars per year. BMW have slightly different motives and targets than GM, which is understandable considering they are not GM.
The Ultimate Driving Machine tagline had nothing to do with lap times. You're so stuck up on lap times, I have to ask (and this goes to the other BMW bashers out there): What was your personal best lap time on a track (which track?) in a bone stock street car?
With regard to the Nordschleife, let's not forget the little matter of power and torque the ZR1 has. The LFA's standard tires are the same type that come on a BMW 1-Series and while they are fatter than the BMW's, they aren't fatter than the ZR1's. The Nurburgring Edition's is the same type that was originally optional on the old GT-R (which was generally chucked in favor of the faster Dunlops). In independent testing by Germany's Sport Auto, the Nurburgring Edition with its upgraded aero, suspension, and tires, was only 4s faster than the standard car, which matched the time of the ZR1 at the hands of the very same driver. Chris Harris, who has driven many cars on the Nordschleife (some even while racing during VLN events and the 24H itself), said the LFA was the best car he's ever driven there. Fastest != best.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 2
Are you kidding? I asked you about being a road car. Not about fastest times on a track. And let's look further into what they actually said in reference to what I asked, shall we?
""The [Mustang] stands on its nose when you go to brake," says Randy, "And there's a fair amount of squat, so you feel a lot of pitch. It doesn't seem to be hurting the cars braking or entry that much, but it's disconcerting."
As for steering, the Mustang's is fast but lacks feedback.
"The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track. It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
For the definitive answer, we go to Randy's times: 87.67 seconds in the BMW to 87.76 seconds for the Ford. That's right, the difference between the fastest laps of the M3 and Mustang GT is, literally, less than an eye blink: 0.09 second, to be exact.Randy's response? "God bless America! Let's hear it for the Mustang. To me, that is a giant win for the Mustang GT because the BMW is such formidable competition."
What about us? Do we take Randy's advice and name the Mustang, even in defeat, the winner? No. Although it may test better, cost less, and lap faster in the hands of (an exceptionally) common man, on this day, the Mustang is beaten fair and square where it matters most.
1ST PLACE: BMW M3
Did you blink and miss the M3's onionskin advantage over the GT? Here's a hint: It's in the chassis, not underhood.
2ND PLACE: MUSTANG GT
Never has a loss felt so much like a win. From not once considered to full-blown contender, 5.0 officially puts the world on notice."
Do you think you know more about what makes a good sports car than Gordon Murray, Tadge Juechter, or the engineers from Lotus, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, or seasoned journalists who have driven all manners of cars? Find me a single source that says objective, stat-sheet numbers are most important, or more important than everything else combined.
When you buy a car, do you not get an interior?
The base Camaro is quicker than the GT, but it's been known to feel heavier than the Mustang, and its steering isn't as good as the M3's. The bottom line is that for the vast majority of people who can afford to be cross-shopping such cars, the word "procharger" doesn't even matter. You can cobble together an interior and procharger setup, but to do so responsibly means you'll need better brakes, better suspension to cope with a level of engine performance well beyond what the basic chassis was set up for. In the end, will you have a nicer interior? Probably not. Sharper steering? Probably not. If you like the sound of a high-revving V8, will you get that? Nope.
So, which Buick is faster than the M3 or Mustang GT on the track? Based on the article you posted, the Mustang must also be a "non performance" vehicle, as there's not much between them objectively.
Since you're keen to use Motor Trend, the most notoriously jingoistic of the Big 3 American car mags, you should consider this:
"Test numbers are important, but they don’t tell you the whole story. I recall Corvette engineers in the mid-80s bragging how the C4 could pull 1g of lateral acceleration. They were right; it could.; But that didn’t make the C4 a great handling car. In fact, on anything other than a billiard table-smooth skidpad the C4 was a dog. Run over a matchbox mid-corner and the damned thing would spit sideways because the rock-hard springs and giant rollbars couldn’t absorb the impact and keep the tire in contact with the tarmac.
There are numerous cars that are far greater than the sum of their numbers. Mazda’s MX-5 Miata, for example. The Porsche Cayman S. The four banger Ford Fusion SE with the six speed manual. Most BMW 3 Series models. The retro-cool Dodge Challenger R/T. The Honda Civic sedan. We use the numbers we get from our testing to give context to the vehicles we are comparing, not simply to arrive at the winner via basic arithmetic. That’s one reason why you won’t see simple scores or ranking charts used to decide Motor Trend comparisons; too often I’ve seen road testers who rely on such methodology forced to introduce snake-oil fudges such as scoring a “Gotta Have It” category to justify what their experienced asses told them in the first place: The car with the best numbers ain’t always the best car."
http://blogs.motortrend.com/road-tes...bers-2581.html
""The [Mustang] stands on its nose when you go to brake," says Randy, "And there's a fair amount of squat, so you feel a lot of pitch. It doesn't seem to be hurting the cars braking or entry that much, but it's disconcerting."
As for steering, the Mustang's is fast but lacks feedback.
"The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track. It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
For the definitive answer, we go to Randy's times: 87.67 seconds in the BMW to 87.76 seconds for the Ford. That's right, the difference between the fastest laps of the M3 and Mustang GT is, literally, less than an eye blink: 0.09 second, to be exact.Randy's response? "God bless America! Let's hear it for the Mustang. To me, that is a giant win for the Mustang GT because the BMW is such formidable competition."
What about us? Do we take Randy's advice and name the Mustang, even in defeat, the winner? No. Although it may test better, cost less, and lap faster in the hands of (an exceptionally) common man, on this day, the Mustang is beaten fair and square where it matters most.
1ST PLACE: BMW M3
Did you blink and miss the M3's onionskin advantage over the GT? Here's a hint: It's in the chassis, not underhood.
2ND PLACE: MUSTANG GT
Never has a loss felt so much like a win. From not once considered to full-blown contender, 5.0 officially puts the world on notice."
Do you think you know more about what makes a good sports car than Gordon Murray, Tadge Juechter, or the engineers from Lotus, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, or seasoned journalists who have driven all manners of cars? Find me a single source that says objective, stat-sheet numbers are most important, or more important than everything else combined.
When you buy a car, do you not get an interior?
The base Camaro is quicker than the GT, but it's been known to feel heavier than the Mustang, and its steering isn't as good as the M3's. The bottom line is that for the vast majority of people who can afford to be cross-shopping such cars, the word "procharger" doesn't even matter. You can cobble together an interior and procharger setup, but to do so responsibly means you'll need better brakes, better suspension to cope with a level of engine performance well beyond what the basic chassis was set up for. In the end, will you have a nicer interior? Probably not. Sharper steering? Probably not. If you like the sound of a high-revving V8, will you get that? Nope.
So, which Buick is faster than the M3 or Mustang GT on the track? Based on the article you posted, the Mustang must also be a "non performance" vehicle, as there's not much between them objectively.
Since you're keen to use Motor Trend, the most notoriously jingoistic of the Big 3 American car mags, you should consider this:
"Test numbers are important, but they don’t tell you the whole story. I recall Corvette engineers in the mid-80s bragging how the C4 could pull 1g of lateral acceleration. They were right; it could.; But that didn’t make the C4 a great handling car. In fact, on anything other than a billiard table-smooth skidpad the C4 was a dog. Run over a matchbox mid-corner and the damned thing would spit sideways because the rock-hard springs and giant rollbars couldn’t absorb the impact and keep the tire in contact with the tarmac.
There are numerous cars that are far greater than the sum of their numbers. Mazda’s MX-5 Miata, for example. The Porsche Cayman S. The four banger Ford Fusion SE with the six speed manual. Most BMW 3 Series models. The retro-cool Dodge Challenger R/T. The Honda Civic sedan. We use the numbers we get from our testing to give context to the vehicles we are comparing, not simply to arrive at the winner via basic arithmetic. That’s one reason why you won’t see simple scores or ranking charts used to decide Motor Trend comparisons; too often I’ve seen road testers who rely on such methodology forced to introduce snake-oil fudges such as scoring a “Gotta Have It” category to justify what their experienced asses told them in the first place: The car with the best numbers ain’t always the best car."
http://blogs.motortrend.com/road-tes...bers-2581.html
Also in the article is Emphasis on ''more conservative'' car is important there. I don't drive performance cars to see the word ''conservative'' in any part of the driving experience. If I wanted that I'd be driving something sedate and serene around all the time.
No matter how much more confident he felt in the BMW it doesn't change the simple fact that there was a .09 difference in lap time. Which can easily be accounted for by him not down shifting to second gear. As impressive as the 5.0's torque band is it's still an engine that responds to throwing it down a gear.
And as far as knowing more than those people goes, I think I know my tastes better than they do. I know what I want in a Performance Vehicle, probably better than anyone else thinks what I want, even after I tell them.
Also I already responded to your ''intangibles'' metric ahead of time. Just scroll up in a previous post in addition to this one.
Actually the Camaro's brakes and the Mustangs brakes both hold up pretty well to add ons. It's not like the designers just took the minimum brakes required to get the car to actually stop, and stop repeatedly and go from there.
Same deal with the suspension. Hell the GT500's suspension is the same job as the track packed GT minus a stiffer rear sway bar, which isn't exactly a budget killer when we're talking about a twenty six thousand dollar difference in price. Do you know what you can buy for twenty six thousand in parts? Premo Interior doesn't even begin to describe what you could do with that kind of money.
And yet the C4 embarrassed exotics constantly around a track. The post 84s also refined the ride quality quite abit. I drive a C4, regularly over broken pavement and the car is no where near as rock like as a pre 88 car is. (especially the 84) infact the C4 did such a good job at embarrassing everyone in the show room class in the SCCA they banned the car after it won literally every race 3 years in a row.
The C4's reputation for being a crowbar over a road surface is frankly undeserved, seeing as how the car was only harsh for the first 4 years out of it's thirteen year existence.
In your case I do think you should be driving a Buick or buick like car.
At the end of the day since I do track my car (for my personal enjoyment and Speed is one of those things that matter for me), the stats actually do matter. Stupid things like ''seat levers'' and ''buttons'' are at the bottom of my priority list when I buy a car. I'm buying for Performance and Aesthetics when it comes to performance vehicles. Aesthetics in particular is very hard to improve upon from a factory car. You're largely limited to whatever the factory's basic shapes are. BMW cars look like *** to me. Hell to most people I know personally they look like ***. It's a box on wheels. It just doesn't compare to cars like a gen 4 F Body, or Vette in terms of looks. Which is something BMW and it's buyers trys to swirl the ''intangibles'' kool aid to ignore as hard as they can.
Performance can be improved, providing there's an actual aftermarket out there for what you're driving. Which is something else the BMW frankly doesn't have much of.
And Durability... that can be improved upon as well but it's prohibitively expensive to do so. In the case of a BMW the only way you're getting a Tracked car to make it past 100k, is if you swap an LSX into it anyway.
If you're going to talk about Performance Cars, then Performance and Aesthetics are the first and foremost factor that should come into play, unless you're one of those nancies that never drive over 70 mph anyway. BMW doesn't make the Ultimate Driving Machine, unless you don't want to talk about Performance or Aesthetics what so ever. If those 2 things matter zero to you, then maybe they do. But for me?
Give me a car that squirms abit under throttle, give me a car that will have a little play under heavy braking, and provide solid pedal feel every time. Give me a car where I can rocket it out of a corner, even in lower rpm conditions. Give me a car that causes people to stare and drool, even when the car's sitting still. Not some pompous, slow for the money, plain styled vehicle with ''fancy buttons and thoughtful seat levers'' any day.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
Seriously, if anyone is unable to perceive the differences here, he needs his vision checked.
DaveFerrari458, if the Kool-Aid behind the badge were all that mattered, why did the BMW 3-Series Copact and 8-Series fail? Why haven't the 5-Series GT and Mercedes R-Class been runaway hits?
DaveFerrari458, if the Kool-Aid behind the badge were all that mattered, why did the BMW 3-Series Copact and 8-Series fail? Why haven't the 5-Series GT and Mercedes R-Class been runaway hits?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
And you think subjective things don't matter? I don't see you posting any of your personal lap times. If subjective doesn't matter, then why would GM boast about improved steering and shifter precision in the '08 Corvettes? Why would Tadge Juechter boast about the subjective improvements and involving feel of the C7? Why are they boasting about better seats? Try going to GM's own website with open eyes:
But then you are not the only one deciding what an M3 is worth.
As for conservative, that could mean a car that has many layers to unearth. It doesn't do loud, brash, crashy and wallowy like the Mustang does.
But they, more than you, are in positions to provide the very cars we're talking about. As do the customers. And the customers have told GM they want something more European, and less crude in the American tradition.
Based on my personal experience that's exactly what it felt like. It wasn't whether the brakes hold up. It was the total lack of feel and inability to modulate them the way I wanted. A 30-year-old BMW with drum brakes has better feel. And you didn't have to pay to add it on.
You probably can't buy the overall package that the M3 is, in terms of track and road behavior. Nor will you get all of the goodies that come with the M3 interior. The fact that you even have to compare modified to factory stock is rather illuminating.
A smooth track. Jeez, when will you start to understand that track performance isn't everything? You guys like to slag car magazines, which are the only place to find any data about "C4 embarassing exotics constantly around a track," yet you totally ignore the context of what those mag numbers represent.
Performance is not only objective. It is can be subjective too. Tadge Juechter will attest to that, and so far you haven't brought forth one reputable source that says stat-sheet numbers are the single most important aspect, the exclusion of anything else (or all else combined).
As for conservative, that could mean a car that has many layers to unearth. It doesn't do loud, brash, crashy and wallowy like the Mustang does.
Same deal with the suspension. Hell the GT500's suspension is the same job as the track packed GT minus a stiffer rear sway bar, which isn't exactly a budget killer when we're talking about a twenty six thousand dollar difference in price. Do you know what you can buy for twenty six thousand in parts? Premo Interior doesn't even begin to describe what you could do with that kind of money.
Performance is not only objective. It is can be subjective too. Tadge Juechter will attest to that, and so far you haven't brought forth one reputable source that says stat-sheet numbers are the single most important aspect, the exclusion of anything else (or all else combined).
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
To be honest it was tough to defend the Ferrari's performance vs the P car. And now both of them are having to defend their attributes against Vette, Viper, GTR etc. The aura of a F car is enough to just sit back and smile. I'm only repeating the lap time differentials to make a point that the Vette team has really honed the formula for their car. And they developed it from their racing program. BMW really needs a flagship to compete with Porsche let alone the Vettes. I never tracked my Ferrari's(I'm going to get slapped around for this) as I have used the school's car(Bondurant). Typical Ferrari worries. Didn't want to abuse it or crash it. With regard to the Ring or any other track. The Vette is just amazing on a track. A 90K ZO6 faster than a MP4-12C, LFA or F458 around Laguna Seca. That's just incredible.
BMW have had operating profit margins of over 10% these past few years. GM is around 6%. I don't think BMW "needs" a Corvette competitor anymore than Lamborghini "needs" a Boxster competitor.
And your answer typifies the usual ownership experience: Hardly anyone drives any of these cars on a closed race course. What GM have been doing against Porsche and BMW now is no different than in the 80s with the C4. The ZR1 of that time was still faster on track than the 911 Turbo, all without Corvette Racing at Le Mans. But what everyone can feel, assuming they are half awake, is how the steering responds, what it tells about the road surface, how the car behaves over bumps, etc. In finely honed driver's cars, this can be felt at a mere sub speed limit lope on the road or out on the track.
Last edited by Guibo; Feb 12, 2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,886
Likes: 1,255
From: Carmel CA
But why would you even need to defend it? Is Ferrari having a hard time selling 458s even with the new MP4-12C putting it directly in its gunsights? Your average C6Z buyer isn't cross-shopping against a 12C or LFA or 458. There's nothing really incredible about a 90K car being faster. All of those other cars are meticulously built by hand (the 458's engine block is cast right in the factory, as I recall), and are much more bespoke cars with lower overall production numbers. They aren't modified from cars built in the 10's of thousands per year (with engines bascially shared across sedan and truck lines) so of course amortization is clearly on the Corvette's side. I've been led to believe that Ferrari dealers act like dicks simply because they can, but with the McLaren and LFA, you get an ownership experience in terms of service and customization far in excess of what you get in a Chevy dealership. Some things, you simply can't put a price on.
BMW have had operating profit margins of over 10% these past few years. GM is around 6%. I don't think BMW "needs" a Corvette competitor anymore than Lamborghini "needs" a Boxster competitor.
BMW have had operating profit margins of over 10% these past few years. GM is around 6%. I don't think BMW "needs" a Corvette competitor anymore than Lamborghini "needs" a Boxster competitor.
Last edited by skank; Feb 12, 2013 at 03:35 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: GA (some days)
But what everyone can feel, assuming they are half awake, is how the steering responds, what it tells about the road surface, how the car behaves over bumps, etc. In finely honed driver's cars, this can be felt at a mere sub speed limit lope on the road or out on the track.
I also think that there are people who don't have a natural ability to assess feel who can in fact be taught to better be in-tune with machinery.
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I'd have to agree that the BMW M3 would be in the running and a lower end Porsche. For the money, the c7 is going to be hard to beat.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,886
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From: Carmel CA
I'm not convinced that it's always (I know you didn't specify always) a matter of being "half awake". I think there are some people who have a natural ability for assessing the "feel" of mechanical machinery. These people typically operate machinery as an "art form" rather than as a "mechanical process". These people recognize the finer inputs coming in through their fingertips and their spatial senses. I also think that many people who are not naturally endowed with the ability to assess any of this can't be taught to recognize any of these inputs (these people are like those "singers" at Karaoke night who think that their completely out of tune singing actually sounds pitch perfect; they are tone deft and there is nothing that is going to change that). For these people, subjective assessments like "steering feel" are completely lost on them, and always will be.
I also think that there are people who don't have a natural ability to assess feel who can in fact be taught to better be in-tune with machinery.
I also think that there are people who don't have a natural ability to assess feel who can in fact be taught to better be in-tune with machinery.
Burning Brakes
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
It was their problem not mine. Maybe they needed to bolster their ego since nobody would ever look at their car when we did a day-tour. People would gather around the Ferrari and completely ignore the Porsche. Poor guy's..... I can't believe you don't value the Vette's over-performing attributes. The other cars main engineering directive is to go fast on a track yet be reasonably comfortable (exactly what the Corvette has been doing). I've been to Gaydon(Aston Martin), Sant A'gata and Maranello for factory tours and have seen their bespoke techniques. All three were building great cars but I would not say by a factor of 3-5 times the Vettes price points. Don't get me started on the virtues of the new LT1 vs any exotic motor. Chevy does just fine in that department.
I said I can personally see how some people don't consider lap times to be an important decider in what they buy. And by the absolute lack of any bone stock lap times listed by C6 owners in this thread, it seems that my argument is well-founded: If the vast majority of C6 owners don't seem to care enough to prove the 10/10ths lap time of their car, what makes any of us think a 4-seat BMW owner cares about his?
If not 3-5 times, then what figure is acceptable to you? I think once you factor in the low production volume, everything falls into place: Ferrari building one single 458 ever at 3-5 times the price is very much different from Ferrari buidling 2k or whatever per year at that same price. You can bet that if Ferrari announced only 1, it wouldn't be only 3-5 times the price.
It sounds to me like you've bought a Ferrari. Is that so? I didn't say the bespoke manufacturing technique is the only factor. It's everything else combined that contributes to the prices of those cars. Relatively low supply and high demand. Simple.
Chevy does "fine" at that price point with the LT1. Ask yourself if that engine would be fine if Chevy asked the kind of prices that Ferrari/Lambo asks.
I'm not convinced that it's always (I know you didn't specify always) a matter of being "half awake". I think there are some people who have a natural ability for assessing the "feel" of mechanical machinery. These people typically operate machinery as an "art form" rather than as a "mechanical process". These people recognize the finer inputs coming in through their fingertips and their spatial senses. I also think that many people who are not naturally endowed with the ability to assess any of this can't be taught to recognize any of these inputs (these people are like those "singers" at Karaoke night who think that their completely out of tune singing actually sounds pitch perfect; they are tone deft and there is nothing that is going to change that). For these people, subjective assessments like "steering feel" are completely lost on them, and always will be.
To expand on the karaoke a bit and bringing it back to Draexlmaier, someone else provides the music and lyrics (just as Draexlmaier supplies the materials and know-how), but there will be many different interpretations of any song (or set of raw materials). It's up to the singer (or manufacturer) to decide what the end product is. Which is why a Veyron looks so different inside from a Maybach and both have interior quality very different from an Audi A1. TopGear's James May has a similar take on this, with regard to driving:
"I still believe that the pleasure of driving comes not from the absolutes of performance, but from the nature of its delivery. I would argue that Mazda’s MX-5, although not especially fast in outright terms, is a high-performance car because it heightens the sensations relayed during driving.
The same is true of music. I can play Chopin’s C-sharp minor posthumous nocturne upon the piano, but Maurizio Pollini performing it on the beer-soaked, honky-tonk joanna in your local will sound better than me having a crack at it on a 9ft Bosendorfer.
Yet still we are becoming ever more obsessed with outright power figures – mere meaningless statistics – and losing sight of what makes a car actually feel fast. But it’s OK, because I think I have identified the source of the rot.
We must go back to 1972, and the pack of Top Trumps Sports Cars I was given for my ninth birthday."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...e-figures.html
If it's Top Trumps the numbers guys are after, there's much more where that came from. Those who contend that outright 10/10ths lap time differences are signficant factors in vehicle purchases, or engineering criteria, will see their tally closer to ZERO.
Last edited by Guibo; Feb 12, 2013 at 04:29 PM.
1st Gear
Joined: Sep 2012
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I plan to buy a new car in about a year
I do plan to buy a new car in about a year. My thoughts are a C7 Corvette or a Caddy CTS/V. Plus for the Corvette is to replace my old C5 with something shiny and new with big bragging rights in the Corvette Club I belong to. Plus for the Caddy CTS/V better ride, more comfort and something I would use every day with more way speed than I would ever dream of using.
No both are not an option.
Charles
No both are not an option.
Charles
Racer
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 2
From: Sugar Land Texas
Most people that buy new Corvettes could care less if it pulls .92g's or 1.03 g's or 1.13g's. They could care less if it has a top speed of 186 MPH, 198 MPH or 205 MPH. They could care less if it runs the 1/4 in 12.3 seconds or 11.7 seconds or 11.3 seconds. What they do care about is the feeling they get when they walk into their garage and look at their new Corvette and the rush they feel when they goose it on the on ramp, to merge on the Interstate. Very few owners of new Corvettes will ever track their cars.
Very good, this is exactly the way I feel when I raise my garage door and watch as my Torch Red GS Coupe slowly appears as the door rises. I always stare for a few moments and do a walk-around, when I settle into the seat I savour the aroma of the leather, AND THEN I start her up. One word: WOW!!!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,578
Likes: 61
From: Austin TX
*If* the C7 is as good as most suspect, that it will finally combine high end refinement (something it has ALWAYS LACKED) with it's expected very high performance (something it's had for a very long time), the face of the "competition" will change. "Competition" meaning, having the C7 being on the short list of buyers that usually buy a P car w/o considering a corvette.
The C6 is the end of the "traditional" corvette buyer only market.
The C6 is the end of the "traditional" corvette buyer only market.
Last edited by AirBusPilot; Feb 12, 2013 at 05:59 PM.
