The winged cars above the ZR1, aren't street legal production cars due to the aero splitters on the front bumper. (When you get a Viper ACR, to drive it on the road you have to have the splitter unbolted, legally speaking for example)

Just saying, US street legal production car with no cage installed is enough to put the ZR1 back on top. The cars above the ZR1 for one reason for another do not meet us street car requirements for one reason or another, or in the case of the GTR had a cage installed to get the chassis shored up.

That being said I don't like using the Green Hell anyway for lap time comparos. It favors raw ponies just abit too much. If you look at tracks like Laguna Seca the handling aspects of a given chassis are allowed to shine, which is why the ZO6 with the sport cup Rs is actually quicker than the mighty ZR1. Just abit too much wheel spin in the ZR1 to make it hammer out the time.

 

Actually the ACR's center piece splitter comes all wrapped up in the trunk, not attached. I honestly did not know the center piece made the car not street legal, I thought they left it off to prevent driveway damage and gave you the option to use it at the track!

I was just asking skank why he mentioned the "wing" not the splitter and was just adding no two cars are equal in aero or power. Like you mention about the cup R's, it changes everything! If the Gen V ran Seca with sport cups I'm willing to bet it would run better than it did with the Pirellis. Also when Probst ran the 2009 ZR1 at Seca w/out cups he ran the same time as he did in the Viper last month, coincidence?

 

Because a production car with top side aero via huge splitter up front and big adjustable wing out back is going to stick through the corners. Corvette hasn't had to resort to that yet. Lexus LFA Nurburgring vs standard LFA is a prime example of the aero advantages of a winged car. Porsche GT2 RS, Viper ACR, etc, etc are also vastly quicker around the big tracks than their non winged counterparts. By the way Dan I do like the new Viper. And they will get it right. And we will have two kick *** American cars spanking the Euros around the ring.

 

Oh I knew what you meant buddy I was just pointing out the advantage a s/c has over a N/A motor, not all is fair in love and war, or in this case cars!! lol The ACR is actually 20mph top speed slower than the GTS due to all the downforce which on the ACR is 1000lbs. at 150mph compared to around 100 on the GTS so yes grip is maximized!

 

Are you kidding? I asked you about being a road car. Not about fastest times on a track. And let's look further into what they actually said in reference to what I asked, shall we?
""The [Mustang] stands on its nose when you go to brake," says Randy, "And there's a fair amount of squat, so you feel a lot of pitch. It doesn't seem to be hurting the cars braking or entry that much, but it's disconcerting."
As for steering, the Mustang's is fast but lacks feedback.
"The shocks can handle the car up to 60 to 70 mph. At 80, 90, 100 mph, we have a really challenging set of curving bumps and braking zones for which the shocks are overmatched."
But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track. It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
For the definitive answer, we go to Randy's times: 87.67 seconds in the BMW to 87.76 seconds for the Ford. That's right, the difference between the fastest laps of the M3 and Mustang GT is, literally, less than an eye blink: 0.09 second, to be exact.Randy's response? "God bless America! Let's hear it for the Mustang. To me, that is a giant win for the Mustang GT because the BMW is such formidable competition."
What about us? Do we take Randy's advice and name the Mustang, even in defeat, the winner? No. Although it may test better, cost less, and lap faster in the hands of (an exceptionally) common man, on this day, the Mustang is beaten fair and square where it matters most.
1ST PLACE: BMW M3
Did you blink and miss the M3's onionskin advantage over the GT? Here's a hint: It's in the chassis, not underhood.
2ND PLACE: MUSTANG GT
Never has a loss felt so much like a win. From not once considered to full-blown contender, 5.0 officially puts the world on notice."

Do you think you know more about what makes a good sports car than Gordon Murray, Tadge Juechter, or the engineers from Lotus, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, or seasoned journalists who have driven all manners of cars? Find me a single source that says objective, stat-sheet numbers are most important, or more important than everything else combined.

When you buy a car, do you not get an interior?
The base Camaro is quicker than the GT, but it's been known to feel heavier than the Mustang, and its steering isn't as good as the M3's. The bottom line is that for the vast majority of people who can afford to be cross-shopping such cars, the word "procharger" doesn't even matter. You can cobble together an interior and procharger setup, but to do so responsibly means you'll need better brakes, better suspension to cope with a level of engine performance well beyond what the basic chassis was set up for. In the end, will you have a nicer interior? Probably not. Sharper steering? Probably not. If you like the sound of a high-revving V8, will you get that? Nope.

So, which Buick is faster than the M3 or Mustang GT on the track? Based on the article you posted, the Mustang must also be a "non performance" vehicle, as there's not much between them objectively.

Since you're keen to use Motor Trend, the most notoriously jingoistic of the Big 3 American car mags, you should consider this:
"Test numbers are important, but they don’t tell you the whole story. I recall Corvette engineers in the mid-80s bragging how the C4 could pull 1g of lateral acceleration. They were right; it could.; But that didn’t make the C4 a great handling car. In fact, on anything other than a billiard table-smooth skidpad the C4 was a dog. Run over a matchbox mid-corner and the damned thing would spit sideways because the rock-hard springs and giant rollbars couldn’t absorb the impact and keep the tire in contact with the tarmac.
There are numerous cars that are far greater than the sum of their numbers. Mazda’s MX-5 Miata, for example. The Porsche Cayman S. The four banger Ford Fusion SE with the six speed manual. Most BMW 3 Series models. The retro-cool Dodge Challenger R/T. The Honda Civic sedan. We use the numbers we get from our testing to give context to the vehicles we are comparing, not simply to arrive at the winner via basic arithmetic. That’s one reason why you won’t see simple scores or ranking charts used to decide Motor Trend comparisons; too often I’ve seen road testers who rely on such methodology forced to introduce snake-oil fudges such as scoring a “Gotta Have It” category to justify what their experienced asses told them in the first place: The car with the best numbers ain’t always the best car."
http://blogs.motortrend.com/road-tes...bers-2581.html

 

There is no competition to the vette

for the money NONE. ZILCH. NADA.

What's in a similar price range? M3 / GT500 / TTRS / and such

Are they even close to vette in performance? NO.

Have a nice day lol

 

I asked some of the Motor Trend guys why they would always favor cars like the Cayman, Boxters, Miata's, 911's as their Best Drivers car. After their response I then asked them what if you would slow the Vette down to the same lap time as the slower winner and how would the Vette feel then. It would be a nice relaxed cruise around the track while the Porsche or whatever would be maxed out straining itself at the edge.

 

Yeah it's not street legal to have it on I'm not exactly sure why, but I think it has something to do with concerns about it destroying itself on the road ways and leaving bits of itself on the road. It's a road hazard liability I think.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html actually he's a hair faster

Well the front aero is often called a wing as well, so I was confused as to what you meant exactly. But IIRC the faster cars than the ZR1 (GTR aside), all have front aero devices installed. More than a couple of them would fail current emission and crash standards as well.

Yeah the Sport Cup Rs are an evil evil sticky meat. When I do my next tire and rim change I'm thinking about buying a set of sport cup Rs if they make them for the C4s factory rims so I can have some real fun on the local range.

 

Bang on Joe


M....

 

The part in bold has made quite a few viper fanbois heads to explode over the years...

 

Funny aaron they have the 1.33.70 listed as run in 2008, he ran 1.35.70 in 08 or 09, the fastest time was just two months ago on sport cups! As for the front aero i always referred to it as a splitter, maybe just semantics!

And as for the R's don't use them pon the street unless you want to grab every granule of debris possible!!! LOL

 

So, what is your defense of your red Italian cars from Maranello against your Porsche friends?
What position is BMW in? They're about to come online with a very different type of sports car, the i8. If projections are correct, they'll be selling close to 30k electric i3 cars per year. BMW have slightly different motives and targets than GM, which is understandable considering they are not GM.
The Ultimate Driving Machine tagline had nothing to do with lap times. You're so stuck up on lap times, I have to ask (and this goes to the other BMW bashers out there): What was your personal best lap time on a track (which track?) in a bone stock street car?

With regard to the Nordschleife, let's not forget the little matter of power and torque the ZR1 has. The LFA's standard tires are the same type that come on a BMW 1-Series and while they are fatter than the BMW's, they aren't fatter than the ZR1's. The Nurburgring Edition's is the same type that was originally optional on the old GT-R (which was generally chucked in favor of the faster Dunlops). In independent testing by Germany's Sport Auto, the Nurburgring Edition with its upgraded aero, suspension, and tires, was only 4s faster than the standard car, which matched the time of the ZR1 at the hands of the very same driver. Chris Harris, who has driven many cars on the Nordschleife (some even while racing during VLN events and the 24H itself), said the LFA was the best car he's ever driven there. Fastest != best.

 

@ Lavender, The Academy would like to thank you for your useless and stupid contribution!

 

The point you seem to be missing is that the Porsche or whatever being maxed out and straining itself at the edge is a pleasurable aspect to driving. The Corvette at the edge...not so much. If you have to back off from the Corvette's very high limits to get back into a comfort zone, then of what use is that final 10/10ths of performance? When you extracted 10/10ths from your car on the track, were you inundated with sponsor money and grid girls? Did the same happen while driving on mountain roads?
It's interesting that you would have to ask Motor Trend guys that, considering they tend to spell out with decent clarity what it is they look for in a driver's car. It's not that much different from the UK's Autocar, which IIRC started the whole "best driver's car" thing.

When GM Racing's Johnny O'Connell said, "This is the best car I've driven around the proving grounds in my 12 years at General Motors," he wasn't talking about the Corvette. He was talking about the Cadillac ATS. What do you suppose he meant by that?

 

So then what does it have to do with? Comfort? Ease of driving at the limit? Aesthetics? (in which case just about every car ever made beats a BMW. ) In which case, my 3.8 Five Speed Firebird was the Ultimate Driving Machine. It had a great song at high rpm, the five speed was a joy to operate, the brakes were constant, consistent and the car was not only balanced but also quite capable while being flicked about. Aesthetically the car was Arrest Me and Take me to Jail Red. It had sharp lines that got stares every where I went with it, I can't even begin to tell you how much tail that car got me. Yeah that's right, my Birdy is held just a little higher than my Vette is. My Vette just isn't as comfortable to me yet, mostly due to leg room and entry in and out of the car (I have a C4. Getting in and out of the car over the frame rails is abit problematic sometimes. I'm only 27 but I'm starting to feel pretty beat up from all the cycling, running and lifting I've done). That and it's an automatic.

The bird also let me hear the tires on the road alot easier than almost anything I've driven which makes it very easy to hear not just when I've hit the limit of the tires, but when I start approaching it.

Not that pathetic BMW a buddy let me drive, it makes noises at the appropriate time sure, it's reasonably balanced but frankly it's far far too safe about how it goes about it's business. When I'm putting my foot into it, the car's spirit should come alive, not stay seemly sedate about everything it does.

As to your question, it depends on the configuration of the track and I'm not talkin just cones but also the local range I have access to. If we want to talk 1/4s, out of cars I personally owned that were stock (not for very long. I'm a gearhead) 13.80 out of my C4 foot braked and on Continental DWS Extreme Contact rubber. Borrowed cars? high 12s.

Know what I value more than creature comforts? Aesthetics, Song, Speed, Braking Power, ease of flicking, durability and longevity, and mpgs. That to me is more what makes the Ultimate Driving Machine.. not "oh it's comfy like a couch!"

I loved my Bird, but I'm under no illusions of where it stood when it was Stock in the performance world. Outside of it's handling and braking it came up woefully short. When I buy a car, I drive it for a while stock, both on the roads around here, the local range, and the cones before I start figuring out what I want to do to it to make it a better car. I get as much enjoyment out of modifying my rides as I do flogging them rather mercilessly around the local range. It was a damn shame that the bird got Killed by a jack *** that couldn't keep his car on the proper side of the road. I never got the chance other than rubber selection, to make it the car it was just begging to become.

My Vette is already on the path to becoming Special. It's a great car now, but it could be better. It needs to be modernized. Braking, Cylinder head, camshaft, exhaust and intake technology, transmission tech has come a loong way since 89. I have a bevy of speed parts waiting on me. Hopefully I can get it taken care of by the end of next month or at least half ready.

For me my Ultimate Driving Machine, is something that becomes Me as I own it. Something that just grabs me by my adrenal glands and says "oh hell yes we're doing this", and something I can tune later.

 

Mmm that could be a problem then. I have to drive my car to the range and back home again when I'm done since I don't have a trailer and I'm not about to immortalize my C4 by turning it into a trailer queen

 

You're like that kid in school that keeps getting his butt kicked but keeps coming back for more lol.

Quit drinking your delusional Kool-Aid and throwing your perceptional BS on some folks that don't know any better!! I drive a SL that cost $100K new and some of those qualities don't even apply to my car let alone a 3 Series. My Assistant drives a 3 Series and we take her car sometimes to some of my meetings and if you really believe all that you're praising about that car then you are absolutely clueless! I can give you even more examples if you want.

They say love is blind and this is a perfect example! Anyways it's pointless debating with you cause you can fool yourself into thinking day is night.

And why are you on this site anyways??? To spill you're fallacies or just cause a stir?

 

Where is there evidence of him getting his butt kicked?

 

You are entitled to that opinion, but you should also be aware that not everyone thinks that way. While you're so quick to denigrate those who would spend their own money the way they feel fit, you're missing the point that compared to cars like the Mustang, the M3 does song, speed, braking power, etc, but doesn't give up the comfort. That's part of the trick in developing a properly sorted road car, two opposites of the same coin.
Now that you've admitted you have never driven a car on a road course to any lap time, please tell me the relevance of such a statistic to determining what is good in a sports car. A Bentley could probably lap faster than a Miata. Are you claiming that makes the Bentley a better sports car?
I've driven an F-Body and can tell you at no time did I ever feel connected to anything. Not the steering, not the brakes, not the tires. Though the live-axle would overcommunicate when it shouldn't have. I wasn't put off by the V6's power as much as I was put off by its sheer lack of character. And the interior was absolute garbage IMO. Not surprisingly, that car was killed off. Meanwhile, BMW builds the 3-Series not only in Germany, but in South Africa (and delivers it in knocked-down form to Asia) to appease worldwide demand.

You have touched on one aspect of what makes a good sports car, though: Ease of driving. Generally, the more a vehicle responds to the driver, tells him of surface conditions, reacts linearly in response to a given input, the more enjoyable the driving experience is. This can be felt in the steering, brakes, gas pedal, gearshift quality, and yes, the seats too. And it was a major reason why BMW tried so hard to stick to naturally aspirated motors (with individual throttle bodies in M applications) when competitors first went to forced induction. That was behind the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline, which BMW have ditched some years ago for "EfficientDynamics."
When properly sorted, a good driver's car should instill the driver with absolute confidence that what he wants the car to do will happen, and that applies to a broken, bumpy mountain road as it does on a smooth racetrack (if not moreso, since that's where roadcars spend more of their time). But even sportscars don't spend most of their time on such roads. They are used for the grind of everyday traffic, for trips out to town at night. The creature comforts of an M3 can be enjoyed while just sitting in it, while any 10/10ths advantage that a Mustang might have over the M3 can only be exploited in the rarest of circumstances. (And even then, the M3 is the sharper device.)

The RS5 was brought up in comparison to the M3, as was the Mustang GT. Here's how the RS5, C63, and Boss 302 behave over the same roads and on the same track:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...s_c63_amg.html

 

I confuse the two of you as being the same user. So switch him with you or vice-versa....it's all the same. Lol