Perhaps not officially, but this doesn't look like any live axle I've ever seen:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/photos/f...ture-10-2.html

 

Pffft of course it's a live rear axle. Just ask that clever fellow Geremy Clarkson. Yep he sure knows his stuff lololol.


1 min 3 secs.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/459528/chevy_corvette/

 

Again, you are proving my point: Most owners will never lap their cars to that time. They leave professionals to do that. So the fractional 10/10ths differences will not be realized by THEM. What is there left to realize? The way the car feels, the way it looks, the amenities inside, etc. The M3 isn't rated higher than the RS5 simply because of its behavior at 10/10ths; the RS5 is so mute at most any sane road speeds that it doesn't appeal to the kind of driver who appreciates an M3.
And yet there is also video of Marc Basseng lapping the Carrera GT to the time quoted by Porsche, no? Sport Auto's lap time for the GT2 RS was only a few seconds off, well within the bounds of tolerances for drivers and conditions. Auto Bild had a supercar comparo on the full 20.8km Nordschleife with passenger on board, where the Turbo S recorded a 7:41. Is that so far off the time quoted by Porsche?
The point you are missing is that Porsche and Ferrari didn't back away from Corvettes in Motor Trend's tests. They didn't back away from other tests in Europe either. BMW even submits M3s for the epic 0-300 kph straightline tests, knowing full well they will be clobbered.
My point about Porsche retaining higher levels of customers during the collapse are supported by sales figures. Porsche, unlike GM, didn't use push production methods combined with heavy incentives and discounts to push their cars. Now that "New GM" has abandoned push production, we're seeing a closer alignment of sales to actual customers, rather than cars languishing on dealer lots.

 

And when he said the engine makes the same amount of power as a European food mixer, did you take him literally too? It's called humor and hyperbole to make a point (though offended Americans won't be able to grasp that, and when we try our own version of TopGear, the results are dreadful).

 

The American version of Top Gear sucks, but the British humor from Clarkson and his crew is awesome. Top Gear from across the pond is a great show.

 

What rubbish you talk. I am sure 100% of viewers can see his homour about food mixers etc but I would bet the majority would never understand he talks rubbish about technical details as well.

Sure he is undoubtedly funny and there is no comparison between his programs and other country versions but he should not be degrading any manufacturer by telling blatant technical untruths about the cars - it is called respect.

I suspect he actually said the live rear axle thing because he thought it was so rather than as hyperbole or maybe he was just trying to "stick it up yanks" for some silly reason. Poor taste anyhow.

 

No re-read my post , I said Porsche factory timing not independent magazine tests. Check out Wikipedia's lap time list and you will see what I mean. I can guarantee you that Ferrari is not happy that their F458 is slower than the ZR1 by 2.52 seconds or Porsche that the GT3 RS is slower by 3.1 seconds, all using the same pro driver (Randy Pobst). Porsche has yet to give Motor Trend anything faster for their Best Driver Car test than a GT3 RS. And they've had a GT2 RS all this time. Same over at the Car and Driver Lightening Lap, no GT2 RS. Porsche, during the Rennsport reunion at Laguna Seca realized that the GT2 RS was not going to overtake the ZR1. They put Johannes Van Overbeek (Porsche Factory Driver) in the GT2 RS and is still 1.86 seconds behind the ZR1. Just admit it. Porsche has reached its limits.

 

OK - so now you are upset..you spend gzillion of words, copy/paste with the gzillion of hours spent reading and here comes telepierre with just few pointed facts and "poof" there goes the G-THEORY..

I understand...

SO

to the second and separate issue:

For the g-zillionth time you have "basically" claimed that C6 has more problems than (insert German Uber car here) BECAUSE there are more internet C6 complains about it vis a vis competition thus (once again) erroneously associating a direct correlation/causation on number of complaints found on internet forums with REAL problems and REAL compares.

To counter this CRAP I pointed out that the numbers of M3 owners that could possibly (comparatively to the C6) complain about their car was considerably lower (in the order of magnitude lower). Or in other words was positing that if there are 214K (mostly US) C6 owners and 19K (mostly US) M3s OF COURSE the probability of finding more good or bad on the C6 is higher than the probability of the same for the M3.

To my US 19K figure...

SO - again 2005-2012:

Your reference to C&D (official data... eh eh)

M3 2005 - 2006 approx 28114 WW
M3 2008-Present approx 32900 WW

TOTAL 2005-Present WW 61014

US Market? aka internet complaints in English? 20ish? 30ish?

Rather that getting fizzled all up about my (supposedly) 2K miss and disguise the issue here why don't YOU explain the ratio aforementioned?

3.5 to 1 WW? 10 to 1 US?

NOTE: This entry has been properly indexed (# 428) and is readily available for future retrieval...

Cheers

 

Yet the independent magazine tests seem to verify Porsche's claims (closer than the Corvette claims). What's your point?
You said Ferrari doesn't care about the Nordschleife, so why would they care what the ZR1 does there? You still have not addressed the fact that they provided a 458 for same-day testing against the Z06. This is in direct contradiction to your claim that they don't send cars to be tested against Corvettes.
Did Van Overbeek test a ZR1 on that same day? Sounds to me like you're comparing wikipedia times drawn from different days.
Considering the relative strength of Porsche's sales during this recession, I don't think they've reached any limit. With the GT2 RS pretty much sold out, why would they feel any need to submit any for testing? You do realize ZR1s can be had at heavy discounts, and even with that they've fallen short of their stated sales goals, right?

 

Where did I say the C6 has more problems?? I specifically referred to interior quality and the seats. When GM tries half-assedly to produce better sports seats, when GM admits the interior quality is not where they want it to be (these are people who are in the business of selling, um, Corvettes after all), there's probably some truth to it. Even Tadge Juechter said that those who drive their Corvettes aggressively have found the seats lacking.

So you admit you have no real source of information for your 19k figure, but instead are backtracking and now deriving it from my figures. Haha. Do realize that "present" is not really present at all. That was through 2010. We are now in 2013. Fact of the matter is, your claim that there were 19k M3s sold is FALSE. Why would you focus on only US sales anyway? BMW builds cars for other markets, you know.
The C6 has been slagged on both sides of the Atlantic for its interior and seats. Go find me some reviews of the M3 that bemoan the interior and seats in a similar fashion.

 

Both Ferrari and Porsche are very concerned by all this. The USA is the largest single market for both. Heck, I think California is the largest single market for both. Independent magazines do not correlate with the Porsche factory times. Chevrolet absolutely does video verify their times. Porsche does not video verify except for this last 911-991 lap. The two most important magazine lap tests in our country is the Laguna Seca test and the VIR test. Nothing else matters to the average American or Canadian sportscar fan. Porsche and Ferrari have held back their top cars in both test's pure and simple. The Porsche GT2 RS lap was done at the huge Rennsport reunion organized by The Porsche Club of America. The biggest Porsche event in the USA. With all the Porsche's there that weekend the track was completely rubbered in. They then put in Van Overbeek to set a time. On the other hand the ZR1 lap was done on a dirty track that wasn't rubbered in. All with only a few laps to make it happen as there are noise restrictions at the track. The Motor Trend video points this out. All of this is for bragging rights. Just like in the old day's when the Porsche guy's used to torment the Ferrari guy's with their superior lap time performances all over Europe. By the way, I was there at the Porsche event and it was clear what Porsche was doing.

 

US may be the largest market, but not for long.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2012...es_largest.htm
http://www.wautom.com/2013/01/china-...cedes-porsche/

Just because you claim that Ferrari is concerned by this does not make it so. This is borne out by the fact that I posted a picture from a test where a Ferrari and Porsche were very much in evidence alongside a Corvette. Your claim that they hide their cars is false.

Your statement about magazine times not verifying Porsche's claims also appear to be false. Porsche claimed 7:28 for the Carrera GT. What did Marc Basseng get? WATCH:


6 seconds by Horst von Saurma, given only 3 laps (warmup, flyer, cool-down) suggests Porsche is not lying about the GT2 RS time. Where is the independent verification of GM's NRing time? Is it your contention that differences from one track will translate to another track always? Regardless of the layout?
Porsche claimed 7:32 for the GT2. Horst von Saurma did it in the supertest in 7:33.
Porsche claimed 7:40 for the 997.2 GT3. HvS did it in 7:40. Andy Guelden, driving in a feature for the UK magazine Car, did it in 7:49 with fog, damp patches, and road works present.

A "rubbered-in" track doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially if all of those cars have dropped liquids on the track, or gone off track and dragged on debris. This much was evident when Chris Harris compared the GT-R and the GT2 right after a race weekend on the NRing. There was still oil left on the track (which was made worse by other factors).

Considering the vast majority of American motoring enthusiasts have never even driven on VIR, what are the odds that your typical $60-100k car buyer has?

 

put the crack pipe down...you are wrong on both counts

 

For many years, there were very few European cars with V8 engines. And now most of the popular European 2 seater sport cars have a V8, of about 5 - 6 liters in the 400 -500 HP range. I'm sure the Corvette had a lot to do with that change of mind. Not too many years ago, 35 European car magazines chose the LS series of engines the "engine of the Year". It kinda looks to me like the Europeans are the wanna bes these days. When I was there living and working driving a C5 on all the European twisty roads, every relatively major city had a Corvette club and they were very active fanatics.

 

I will play... Jaguar F-Type S V8.... But the competition is with the C7 Convertible

 

Not a chance.

 

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/02/02...10/#more-10250

It starts with 2000ish M3s in the USA in 2010...

But the real point is that you do not have a clue nor understanding of what I wrote you. Do you?!

 

Wait since when did Jag start making sexy cars again? Hang on I have to clean the drool off my key board.

 

Are we correct that the USA market is still the largest? Yes. OK. On April of 2010 Porsche claimed a time of 7:18.00 (there's those even numbers again) with the GT2 RS driven by Timo Cluck (why don't you find that video for me, nobody can seem to find it). On November of 2010 issue of Sport Auto Horst von Saurma alledgedly did a 7:24.00 (whats the matter with those Germans, Don't they have timers that read into the thousands of seconds. We know the Swiss do.) The ZR1 has been video verified at 7:19.63. It's on youtube. Thousands of people have watched it. By the way, A rubbered in track makes a massive difference. Also, everybody is looking at these laptime lists. Everybody loves a list !!!!

 

And yet, in those instances it does matter doesn't it? I mean really if we were to talk about how only normal driving matters, we'd never have made it past the 60s in terms of suspension design.

It's a local driving range, if you're wondering.

You've never actually modded a car before have you? I get that you drive a BMW and thus don't know better but those mods make a huge world of difference in how a car performs and handles, not just at the limits either. While the gap isn't quite as large as say taking an old muscle car and stuffing a modern car's suspension, and power train in it, it's still pretty substantial in how it changes the car's attitude.

Just to site some examples off the list, the tubular trailing arms for example. The stockers are prone to serious deflection due to their cost efficient ('round here we call that Cheap) construction. This changes how well the tire maintains contact with the road, forces the other components of the suspension to work harder, and limits your ability to keep your foot in it around a corner.

The sway bars kits, well if you can't see how moving to a tubular swaybar, that is larger than the cast piece the car came with, you probably shouldn't be on this forum or any other to discuss the merits of suspension, or even cars for that matter.

You mean the Same Mustang SVT Cobra R, that was based on a twenty plus year old chassis? Yeah that's right, the 04 model was still on a Fox substructure. The same Cobra R, that despite a 70 horse power advantage over an SS Camaro, could only eek out a .3 tenths improvement in lap time over the live axle Gen 4 Camaro? You also do know, that the current stangs run solid axles in the back, and they whip the snot out of every single previous mustang ever made right? There's a reason Ford put the live axle suspension back in the back of the car from 05 to now. Because they found a proper setup that would make the solid axle system work.


Oh and by the way Ford has been messing with various shock packages from 05 till now. They haven't been willing to just fess up and put the Michelins on the car for whatever reason. But the tire manufacturer has changed a couple of times now throughout the current chassis existence. The shocks that work the best though are the Ford Racing shocks and struts that I already linked from Summit. At least currently, which they do offer via aftermarket.

And if you think aftermarket parts = do nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBskz...kwHZgyQ#t=371s Here you go. Oh and did you know you can build a 68 Camaro that can pull damn near a G on the skid pad? http://www.superchevy.com/features/c...o/viewall.html That's on the traditional style leaf springs by the way.

So you were saying?

It saved both on weight, and vastly increased the durability of the rear end, to help with power adders.

As far as why Camaro went IRS. Let's face it, GM just wanted to port over another Holden. (Despite the fact that the goat Failed At Life) They figured it'd be cheaper to do this, without changing the rear suspension. The real funny bit is, the Gen 4 Camaros with swap outs from crappy Cast trailing arms (seriously go pick one up some day and twist it in your hands. now imagine what 325 to 350 ponies is doing to that with a 3200 to 3400 lb set of weight thrown in) and swap out from the crappy Cast pan hard rod handles a hell of alot better than the new Fatmaro does, due to the huge disparity in weight in the cars. Weight which could have been saved had the Fat *** I mean Fatmaro not had an IRS capable of taking some serious abuse.


By the time Jackie stewart drove a C4 (and he was driving an older model), he was already getting up there in the years. He'd already been in a few rather hard wrecks. Again see someone with joint and bone problems. Not only that, you notice how you mentioned he worked with Crapyear. The most notoriously bad performance tire maker around.

Let me ask you this about your BMW. Where is it's sex appeal? Oh right, it left that on the drawing board the moment that they decided "hey a box is awesome!' You want to talk about features the stang doesn't have (which you could easily put on there with the $ left over from not buying a 3 series by the way)? Lets start talking about the things the BMW doesn't have. Aesthetics, the Stang is drop dead gorgeous in multiple colors. The BMW only looks passable at best in Black, and ugly in virtually every other color. It looks like something you'd show up in because your wife took your ***** and clipped them off. And as far as interior quality goes, where is the Cut Marble? How about some honest to god alumimum or stainless (and not just chromed over plastic) for 70,000 that's a god awful lot of plastic to be staring at, for something that in your eyes is the ultimate driving machine where the ''fancyness'' matters don't you think?

Sound. The BMW is quiet tame, and frankly pathetic until you are at the upper most reaches of it's rpm range, meaning it has next to none in sound in Daily Life. The stang on the other hand? Driving it just light to light, is a visceral, almost sex to the ears level of V8 symphony. At high rpm the engine also comes to life, but in a much bigger way. Infact it was intentionally designed that way.

Let's talk about drive train durability. The Stang out of the box can go over 800 ponies without snapping anything in the back end. The BMW you're lucky if it survives a couple hard runs at 600. It's weak. The car won't last over 100k without major and frequent service especially if it's ever been driven hard, or even spiritedly.

The Caddy has it's own bold styling. It also is marketing itself as a performance Sedan. It's not trying to masquerade as a sports car like the Identityless BMW is, only to be smote down and slapped around silly like a foster child in every racing league it enters against domestic cars in, and around the track in nearly every comparo out there.

Either BMW needs to drop the ''ultimate driving machine'' moniker, because it's clearly confusing people like you as to what the car's market is, or they need to make something that's actually a sports car first and not a sedan. They seem like they are pondering this with the concept car that's pretty clearly inspired from the original M1, but whether they actually Sack Up and do it, or just pull another Z3 remains to be seen.