Corvette's Rival
Le Mans Master
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From: Beaverton OR
You can be a Corvette Owner!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; Feb 28, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
Le Mans Master
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So Guibo, here we go again;
Let alone the fact that you are pitching Porsche and Ferrari as car manufacturers vis a vis a single car platform like the C6 family....
By which linear logic are you concluding
Which numbers Guibo? Profit? Revenue, numbers of units?
By which logic are you using peak sales as an arbitrator and criteria for
Why not total units sold?
Total profits?
Total revenue?
By your logic the higher the peak (the more car sold which Corvette did vis a vis the Ferrari and 911) the worse things look?
By that criteria if I peak with one car at 5 and next year I sell 3 (a 60% decrement) THEN that is better than if I sold 500 at peak and then the next year 320 (a 64% decrement)???
Let alone the fact that you are pitching Porsche and Ferrari as car manufacturers vis a vis a single car platform like the C6 family....
By which linear logic are you concluding
Which numbers Guibo? Profit? Revenue, numbers of units?
By which logic are you using peak sales as an arbitrator and criteria for
Why not total units sold?
Total profits?
Total revenue?
By your logic the higher the peak (the more car sold which Corvette did vis a vis the Ferrari and 911) the worse things look?
By that criteria if I peak with one car at 5 and next year I sell 3 (a 60% decrement) THEN that is better than if I sold 500 at peak and then the next year 320 (a 64% decrement)???
Sure, we can talk about numbers: 25k 911s (or 19k 997s) vs 14k C6s. And the average transaction price of a 911 is far, far higher. This is not quite your 5 and 3 vs 500 and 320, now is it?
Tadge Juechter says the Corvette needs to sell at double its current rate just to be "OK" and that means to be profitable and self-sustaining. I've not seen Porsche express any dissatisfaction with its sales, or aging demographic, or need to radically change the 911 like that.
johnglenn didn't ask about specific Ferrari models, so you can calm down. The numbers on Ferrari's sales bear this out. They've exceeded their peak figures on cars that cost well over $200k. How many Corvettes cost over $200k? Obviously, Ferrari is a smaller company. But I'm guessing they make more profit on each car sold. Their sales margin last year was 14%, roughly double what GM made (and we know Corvette isn't exactly helping there as Juechter said sales need to double just to be sustainable).
I didn't say anything about magnitudes of peaks; I specifically mentioned sales retentions with respects to peaks within each car.
To your last question, I don't know what you are asking. 324 from a peak of 500 would be a 64% retention and it might be better if we are talking about similarly priced products. The magnitude and the retention level are higher, so I don't see what your point is. Now, if the products are vastly different in price, say 3 items each @ $1B from a peak of 5, that would be $3B. Whereas if the other product cost $1, then 324 items would have higher retention, but only a revenue of $324.
In the case of Porsche, the 911 not only yields more revenue, it also retained a higher level relative to peak. So yes, Porsche's 911 did weather the storm better than the Corvette. What figures do you have that suggest otherwise?
Le Mans Master
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You really keep track of this stuff!? I'm happy if I just understand what kind of tires they are putting on their beasts.
Anyway, the C7 was designed to be a game changer. Everything from the identity fostering Stingray Icon on in has obviously been well thought out. And proven superior performance will still be the Holy Grail. I think we already, more or less, agreed on most of what I just wrote.
Let the Ring Times roll!
Anyway, the C7 was designed to be a game changer. Everything from the identity fostering Stingray Icon on in has obviously been well thought out. And proven superior performance will still be the Holy Grail. I think we already, more or less, agreed on most of what I just wrote.
Let the Ring Times roll!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2010
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From: Beaverton OR
Maybe!
The information is not too hard to find. The C7 was designed to be a game changer because GM knew its sales would be doomed if it kept appealing only to the same core without branching out to others (those customers of other companies that couldn't tell you 'Ring times from ringworms).
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,788
Likes: 164
From: Beaverton OR
Also!
The information is not too hard to find. The C7 was designed to be a game changer because GM knew its sales would be doomed if it kept appealing only to the same core without branching out to others (those customers of other companies that couldn't tell you 'Ring times from ringworms).
I guess that is why I read this stuff!
Le Mans Master
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And how did that work out for Dodge and its ACR? Not too well. It would take an incredibly gifted salesman to convince a buyer that the ACR really is the overall equal of a ZR1/Z07 or 997S. Most people choosing to part with $100k do so based on something far more substantial than an online video.
Melting Slicks
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From: Peoples Republik of MD & Sarasota FL
First off anyone who opens this thread and gets pissed off that cars other than Vettes are being debated should reread the thread title then ask yourself why you opened it.
Now that that's established, I would state that any car purchased in the price range where the buyer even thought about a Vette IS a rival at least at the point of sale. Re- phrased, the C7 will be a rival for a great many more cars than the C6 was due to the fresh design, promising performance and elimination of most of the C6's percieved faults.
The bickering over car A having faster lap times than car B really is just forum fodder. While absolute limits provide bragging rights and a degree of relevence to the conversation (such as the recent ZR1 vs GTS comparison which reinforced the ZR1's off track dominance as well) most new car buyers consider a stack of attributes before making a decison. I will vouch that the Porsche owners group has the highest percentage of on track participation by a very large margin. PCA events dominate the HPDE schedules and are usually 95% filled with their own brand.
I would also state that attainable performance at the HPDE level is more relevent than Randy P's lap times at Laguna. In my experience, Vette's and 911's have this in common: skilled drivers can haul azz and lesser drivers of both are usually in the way. M3's are very well balanced and are much easier to drive fast for individuals new to the hobby (especially with DCT). Same for the Cayman S, I see many of them being among the fastest in the beginner and intermediate groups. My first "track car" was a DD C63 which most would dismiss as a poser but slight modifications turned it into an animal as I made the progression from instructed to advanced groups.
Point being nearly every car discussed in this thread has it's virtues and should not be so easily dismissed. In defense of the M3 ( I have a track specific E36 myself to compliment my non-track 427) I offer the following clip. This car belonged to Nate Cicio (Top Speed tuners) and is driven by Leh Keen who shows up and drives at HPDE's more often than you would think. Minor mods to the Bimmer and he is running 1:17 at Roebling Road. The car has more potential than most may believe (based on the previous posts). Additionally, the next gen M3 which will probably be an M4 in coupe form is arriving soon, will have transformational improvements just like the C7 has over the C6 and will most certainly be a rival.
Rivalry is a good thing people......it's how the industry pushes itself to everyone's advantage!
Be sure to read the driver's comments and consider the source (Rolex / ALMS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtiJQKvTFGk
Now that that's established, I would state that any car purchased in the price range where the buyer even thought about a Vette IS a rival at least at the point of sale. Re- phrased, the C7 will be a rival for a great many more cars than the C6 was due to the fresh design, promising performance and elimination of most of the C6's percieved faults.
The bickering over car A having faster lap times than car B really is just forum fodder. While absolute limits provide bragging rights and a degree of relevence to the conversation (such as the recent ZR1 vs GTS comparison which reinforced the ZR1's off track dominance as well) most new car buyers consider a stack of attributes before making a decison. I will vouch that the Porsche owners group has the highest percentage of on track participation by a very large margin. PCA events dominate the HPDE schedules and are usually 95% filled with their own brand.
I would also state that attainable performance at the HPDE level is more relevent than Randy P's lap times at Laguna. In my experience, Vette's and 911's have this in common: skilled drivers can haul azz and lesser drivers of both are usually in the way. M3's are very well balanced and are much easier to drive fast for individuals new to the hobby (especially with DCT). Same for the Cayman S, I see many of them being among the fastest in the beginner and intermediate groups. My first "track car" was a DD C63 which most would dismiss as a poser but slight modifications turned it into an animal as I made the progression from instructed to advanced groups.
Point being nearly every car discussed in this thread has it's virtues and should not be so easily dismissed. In defense of the M3 ( I have a track specific E36 myself to compliment my non-track 427) I offer the following clip. This car belonged to Nate Cicio (Top Speed tuners) and is driven by Leh Keen who shows up and drives at HPDE's more often than you would think. Minor mods to the Bimmer and he is running 1:17 at Roebling Road. The car has more potential than most may believe (based on the previous posts). Additionally, the next gen M3 which will probably be an M4 in coupe form is arriving soon, will have transformational improvements just like the C7 has over the C6 and will most certainly be a rival.
Rivalry is a good thing people......it's how the industry pushes itself to everyone's advantage!
Be sure to read the driver's comments and consider the source (Rolex / ALMS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtiJQKvTFGk
My buddy just started racing with the BMW Club guys at Summit Point and VIR in his own track prepped E36M3. Great car for tracking.
Nice 427 too!
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Burning Brakes
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From: Aurora Colorado
Le Mans Master
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Except in your case, I did speak out about a specific car, not the entire manufacturer lineup (911 vs Corvette).
Sure, we can talk about numbers: 25k 911s (or 19k 997s) vs 14k C6s. And the average transaction price of a 911 is far, far higher. This is not quite your 5 and 3 vs 500 and 320, now is it?
Tadge Juechter says the Corvette needs to sell at double its current rate just to be "OK" and that means to be profitable and self-sustaining. I've not seen Porsche express any dissatisfaction with its sales, or aging demographic, or need to radically change the 911 like that.
johnglenn didn't ask about specific Ferrari models, so you can calm down. The numbers on Ferrari's sales bear this out. They've exceeded their peak figures on cars that cost well over $200k. How many Corvettes cost over $200k? Obviously, Ferrari is a smaller company. But I'm guessing they make more profit on each car sold. Their sales margin last year was 14%, roughly double what GM made (and we know Corvette isn't exactly helping there as Juechter said sales need to double just to be sustainable).
I didn't say anything about magnitudes of peaks; I specifically mentioned sales retentions with respects to peaks within each car.
To your last question, I don't know what you are asking. 324 from a peak of 500 would be a 64% retention and it might be better if we are talking about similarly priced products. The magnitude and the retention level are higher, so I don't see what your point is. Now, if the products are vastly different in price, say 3 items each @ $1B from a peak of 5, that would be $3B. Whereas if the other product cost $1, then 324 items would have higher retention, but only a revenue of $324.
In the case of Porsche, the 911 not only yields more revenue, it also retained a higher level relative to peak. So yes, Porsche's 911 did weather the storm better than the Corvette. What figures do you have that suggest otherwise?
Sure, we can talk about numbers: 25k 911s (or 19k 997s) vs 14k C6s. And the average transaction price of a 911 is far, far higher. This is not quite your 5 and 3 vs 500 and 320, now is it?
Tadge Juechter says the Corvette needs to sell at double its current rate just to be "OK" and that means to be profitable and self-sustaining. I've not seen Porsche express any dissatisfaction with its sales, or aging demographic, or need to radically change the 911 like that.
johnglenn didn't ask about specific Ferrari models, so you can calm down. The numbers on Ferrari's sales bear this out. They've exceeded their peak figures on cars that cost well over $200k. How many Corvettes cost over $200k? Obviously, Ferrari is a smaller company. But I'm guessing they make more profit on each car sold. Their sales margin last year was 14%, roughly double what GM made (and we know Corvette isn't exactly helping there as Juechter said sales need to double just to be sustainable).
I didn't say anything about magnitudes of peaks; I specifically mentioned sales retentions with respects to peaks within each car.
To your last question, I don't know what you are asking. 324 from a peak of 500 would be a 64% retention and it might be better if we are talking about similarly priced products. The magnitude and the retention level are higher, so I don't see what your point is. Now, if the products are vastly different in price, say 3 items each @ $1B from a peak of 5, that would be $3B. Whereas if the other product cost $1, then 324 items would have higher retention, but only a revenue of $324.
In the case of Porsche, the 911 not only yields more revenue, it also retained a higher level relative to peak. So yes, Porsche's 911 did weather the storm better than the Corvette. What figures do you have that suggest otherwise?
So let’s see:
Except in your case, I did speak out about a specific car, not the entire manufacturer lineup (911 vs Corvette).
I said Porsche and Ferrari have ridden out the global financial crisis better than Corvette,
Sure, we can talk about numbers: 25k 911s (or 19k 997s) vs 14k C6s.
AND You continue to post 911 worldwide sales numbers to Corvette USA numbers fully knowing that Corvette does not sell overseas (save last year agreement with south korea).
So why don’t you compare the 911 USA numbers @8.5K or better yet in country/domestic numbers 911 at 5794?
And the average transaction price of a 911 is far, far higher.
1. The 911 price is higher than a Corvette
2. The 911 sales more than a Corvette
3. And therefore 911 brings more revenue
4. And more revenue means better financial crisis weathering
Versus a business man logic
1. The 911 price is higher than a Corvette
2. The 911 costs are higher than Corvette
3. More revenue
4. But more cost equal less net
5. Less Net means…? (I let you guess)
This is not quite your 5 and 3 vs 500 and 320, now is it?
Tadge Juechter says the Corvette needs to sell at double its current rate just to be "OK" and that means to be profitable and self-sustaining.
I remember watching Tadge on video talking C6 sales and making money and I won’t be surprised if we are talking the same video with me understanding plain English and
you reverse engineering, psychoanalyzing what was not said and paraphrasing the “voices” out of the video?
Or maybe this
“Corvette needs to sell at double its current rate just to be "OK"
Or is this out of your LSD induced famous interview with Ed Wellburn where “Ed said” he designed the worst C6 interior ever but did not realize it until the car was in production after several phone calls pointing to numerous, documented and Guibotch televised episodes of C6 seats flying out of the window under cornering?
Got to be one of this three above or maybe you have a link?
johnglenn didn't ask about specific Ferrari models, so you can calm down.
The numbers on Ferrari's sales bear this out.
They've exceeded their peak figures on cars that cost well over $200k. How many Corvettes cost over $200k?
Ever heard of zenax?
Obviously, Ferrari is a smaller company. But I'm guessing they make more profit on each car sold.
Their sales margin last year was 14%, roughly double what GM made
(and we know Corvette isn't exactly helping there as Juechter said sales need to double just to be sustainable).
I didn't say anything about magnitudes of peaks; I specifically mentioned sales retentions with respects to peaks within each car.
BTW Just FYI in 2010 911 sales WW were 17607 versus C6 USA of 13164. So do you think those 4443 extra 911 incurred the same cost of sales (overseas) than the C6?
And just trivia..did you know the city of Stuttgart and the German government subsidize Porsche overseas sales? Is that cost of export cheating or what?
To your last question, I don't know what you are asking. 324 from a peak of 500 would be a 64% retention and it might be better if we are talking about similarly priced products.
And yet within this context
The magnitude and the retention level are higher, so I don't see what your point is.
1. You used a compare of retention percentages to make your P and F better than C case. I showed you in very simple terms that to say that if at year 0 of financial crisis C is 100000 and at year 5 it is 0 and F goes from 10000 to 8000 then F retention looks much better than C and yet C smoked the hell out of F in terms of weathering the financial crisis. Got it?
2. The similar priced product is a non-issue as it pertains to your retention theory because it was based on nominal units of sales. And then of course we get into the net profit for car which for all your attempts ala Ferrari vs GM margins…you do not have.
3. Your retention percentages is biased towards small numbers so it will always be proportionally easier for let’s say a small volume F599 to retain sales in the hundreds than for a C6 to retain sales in the thousands.
To point three; I kind of chuckle when I read you and Notch enlighten us all with the news that Ferrari has a backlog of orders and they cannot make enough to fill demand or they sell immediately..
So let’s see… 7000 cars a year.. at least one billion drivers and 10 million milionares
Kind of like saying I am on a backlog of donuts orders for my mom and pop kettle in New York…
And many don’t like donuts
PS - Almost forgot your hang up on the M3 USA sales...even if it was not the core issue vis a vis english forum entries..
So M3 USA 2005-Present
This guy says 2400 in 2010 (record sales)
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484005
Very interesting numbers. I figured BMW sold WAY more M cars global than this. If you extrapolate the US sales percentage against the M3 coupe sales, BMW sold about 2,400 M3 coupes in the US in '10. I thought it would be 2-3x that number.
Very interesting numbers. I figured BMW sold WAY more M cars global than this. If you extrapolate the US sales percentage against the M3 coupe sales, BMW sold about 2,400 M3 coupes in the US in '10. I thought it would be 2-3x that number.
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/02/02...igher-in-2010/
So in 2010 M3 sales significantly higher @ 2400ish
I said 19K and we have 7 years to get there...some at probably less than 2400 some maybe more?
2400 x 8 = 19200
If you have better please do share
Last edited by Telepierre; Mar 1, 2013 at 05:09 AM.
Safety Car
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From: GA (some days)
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From: GA (some days)
Melting Slicks
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Scraping the splitter.
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St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
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Guibo has posted several good articles that articulate what we've been saying about "lap times" versus "the driving experience". If you read those articles and fail to understand the issues, don't come after the messengers. Instead, try to broaden your understanding through study and reflection.
Scraping the splitter.
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St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
Here's your chance, tell us all about your "automotive background" so you can perhaps be taken more seriously.
Which is my exact point.
Both of you support your opinions using the words of other people. This is likely because neither of you have any real world experience with the cars you like to crow about and conversely, ridicule.
S.
Guibo has posted several good articles that articulate what we've been saying about "lap times" versus "the driving experience". If you read those articles and fail to understand the issues, don't come after the messengers. Instead, try to broaden your understanding through study and reflection.
Both of you support your opinions using the words of other people. This is likely because neither of you have any real world experience with the cars you like to crow about and conversely, ridicule.
S.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2013
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That's funny: you have no idea what my automotive background is.
Guibo has posted several good articles that articulate what we've been saying about "lap times" versus "the driving experience". If you read those articles and fail to understand the issues, don't come after the messengers. Instead, try to broaden your understanding through study and reflection.
Guibo has posted several good articles that articulate what we've been saying about "lap times" versus "the driving experience". If you read those articles and fail to understand the issues, don't come after the messengers. Instead, try to broaden your understanding through study and reflection.
Racing @ Motor Trend / Car and Driver videos online.It is indeed funny...
