Corvette's Rival
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,000
Likes: 2,261
Why does ENGLISH SPEAKING MATTER AND WHY DO YOU FOCUS ONLY ON FORUM POSTS?? I said the C6 interior seats and interior have been criticized by both to an extent not seen for the M3, and that has come from reviewers and owners on both sides of the Atlantic; there are UK and Australian forums for Corvettes and BMWs, are there not? Feel free to post up your theory that it is only the underrepresented nature of M3 sales that contributes to this. Is it your contention that the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it simply because there are only 5 in the world? C'mon man. Think! Even Tadge Juechter admits the seats are subpar for people who drive aggressively.
I don't see BMW admitting their interiors aren't world-class. You didn't correct me on anything about Ed but I did blast your theory that execs don't criticize their own vehicles. And I just did again with the Nissan exec admitting that Infiniti are "discount" and really not up to the level of the Europeans. But then you sound like the type who would tell his children "you've got to do better in school" and actually mean "hey, you're OK, no different from any others and better than some."
Nowhere in that link you provided did it say 2000 M3s were sold in the US, and now you are moving the goalposts yet again to compare a post-recession result in one year to the best-ever, pre-recession result for the Corvette in another year. Clever! If looking at similarly-priced cars for the year 2010, why not talk about the overpriced and underperforming Z4, which sold 24,575 units vs maybe 14k worldwide for the Corvette?
Simple fact is, the M3 costs more than the Corvette (even before factoring in GM loyalty discounts, employee discounts, dealer holdbacks, etc) and as such makes it available to an exponentially lower number of buyers (many of whom would rather just spend the money on a loaded 335i or 3-Series vert). The simple fact is, you were wrong to conclude that BMW sold only 19k M3s in the same period it took GM to sell 214k.
And why focus only on the US market? #1 market doesn't necessarily mean anything. One month it will be the US, the next it could be China. BMW aren't so shortsighted as to develop its cars only for one market, you know. You only want to compare the Corvette on its home turf where it has obvious patriotic homefield advantage and a much larger distributor network. Care to compare Ferrari sales in Germany/UK again?
I don't see BMW admitting their interiors aren't world-class. You didn't correct me on anything about Ed but I did blast your theory that execs don't criticize their own vehicles. And I just did again with the Nissan exec admitting that Infiniti are "discount" and really not up to the level of the Europeans. But then you sound like the type who would tell his children "you've got to do better in school" and actually mean "hey, you're OK, no different from any others and better than some."
Nowhere in that link you provided did it say 2000 M3s were sold in the US, and now you are moving the goalposts yet again to compare a post-recession result in one year to the best-ever, pre-recession result for the Corvette in another year. Clever! If looking at similarly-priced cars for the year 2010, why not talk about the overpriced and underperforming Z4, which sold 24,575 units vs maybe 14k worldwide for the Corvette?
Simple fact is, the M3 costs more than the Corvette (even before factoring in GM loyalty discounts, employee discounts, dealer holdbacks, etc) and as such makes it available to an exponentially lower number of buyers (many of whom would rather just spend the money on a loaded 335i or 3-Series vert). The simple fact is, you were wrong to conclude that BMW sold only 19k M3s in the same period it took GM to sell 214k.
And why focus only on the US market? #1 market doesn't necessarily mean anything. One month it will be the US, the next it could be China. BMW aren't so shortsighted as to develop its cars only for one market, you know. You only want to compare the Corvette on its home turf where it has obvious patriotic homefield advantage and a much larger distributor network. Care to compare Ferrari sales in Germany/UK again?
Why does ENGLISH SPEAKING MATTER AND WHY DO YOU FOCUS ONLY ON FORUM POSTS??
Crap like:
“I said the C6 interior seats and interior have been criticized by both to an extent not seen for the M3, and that has come from reviewers and owners on both sides of the Atlantic”
It is BECAUSE there are much more C6 owners and readers of things C6 versus M3 period especially when you count articles and forum posts in ENGLISH! Which is the language YOU use to pick up your “trash” on the internet.
You want numbers?
Start collating forum posts counts for each of the two and see what you come up with!?
This is what I have looking at this C6 forum:
C6: 6,150,813
http://www.m3post.com/forums/
M3 (E 46+E90 + E92 + E93): 1,405,820 (and that is with all the sub entries and additional four years for the E46…that the C6 forum does not have..)
Can you see at least a 4 to 1 ratio? And do you understand why I am writing this to you??
Is it the same ratio for your beloved “cheap” magazine articles?
If not instead of scurrying on Google search for straws why don’t you refresh on the below:
Correlation refers to any of a broad class of statistical relationships involving dependence.
Example: The correlation between the demand for a product and its price
Correlation and causality
The conventional dictum that "correlation does not imply causation" means that correlation cannot be used to infer a causal relationship between the variables
AND most important for YOU than them all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
and then you will be able to answer your own nth idiocy:
“Is it your contention that the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it simply because there are only 5 in the world? C'mon man. Think!”
Cracks me up because in the above you first you try to associate your point to me (others) which you do ALL the time and then you come up with the reverse and deranged build of cause and effect..
So NO GUIBO it is not my contention that
“the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it”
AGAIN…to help you out…
Correlation and causality
“Even Tadge Juechter admits the seats are subpar for people who drive aggressively.”
This is not helping your case Guibo…
And the rest is classic trolls feeding plead which I am not going to satisfy.
Last edited by Telepierre; Feb 21, 2013 at 01:20 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,788
Likes: 164
From: Beaverton OR
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
Why does ENGLISH SPEAKING MATTER AND WHY DO YOU FOCUS ONLY ON FORUM POSTS??
Because FORUM posts and Internet articles copy and paste are at the foible BASE of YOUR deranged pseudo theories and I am using your same tools to debunk your crap.
Crap like:
“I said the C6 interior seats and interior have been criticized by both to an extent not seen for the M3, and that has come from reviewers and owners on both sides of the Atlantic”
And I countered that it is obvious there is more criticism and coverage of a C6 vis a vis a M3:
It is BECAUSE there are much more C6 owners and readers of things C6 versus M3 period especially when you count articles and forum posts in ENGLISH! Which is the language YOU use to pick up your “trash” on the internet.
You want numbers?
Start collating forum posts counts for each of the two and see what you come up with!?
This is what I have looking at this C6 forum:
C6: 6,150,813
http://www.m3post.com/forums/
M3 (E 46+E90 + E92 + E93): 1,405,820 (and that is with all the sub entries and additional four years for the E46…that the C6 forum does not have..)
Can you see at least a 4 to 1 ratio? And do you understand why I am writing this to you??
Is it the same ratio for your beloved “cheap” magazine articles?
If not instead of scurrying on Google search for straws why don’t you refresh on the below:
Correlation refers to any of a broad class of statistical relationships involving dependence.
Example: The correlation between the demand for a product and its price
Correlation and causality
The conventional dictum that "correlation does not imply causation" means that correlation cannot be used to infer a causal relationship between the variables
AND most important for YOU than them all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
and then you will be able to answer your own nth idiocy:
“Is it your contention that the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it simply because there are only 5 in the world? C'mon man. Think!”
“The Think!” Cracks me up!
Cracks me up because in the above you first you try to associate your point to me (others) which you do ALL the time and then you come up with the reverse and deranged build of cause and effect..
So NO GUIBO it is not my contention that “the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it”
It is my contention that since there are only 5 in the world the probability that we will read that it is a POS (I don’t know if it is or not)is much lower than the probability of reading the same for the C6.
AGAIN…to help you out…
Correlation and causality
“Even Tadge Juechter admits the seats are subpar for people who drive aggressively.”
This is not helping your case Guibo…
And the rest is classic trolls feeding plead which I am not going to satisfy.
Because FORUM posts and Internet articles copy and paste are at the foible BASE of YOUR deranged pseudo theories and I am using your same tools to debunk your crap.
Crap like:
“I said the C6 interior seats and interior have been criticized by both to an extent not seen for the M3, and that has come from reviewers and owners on both sides of the Atlantic”
And I countered that it is obvious there is more criticism and coverage of a C6 vis a vis a M3:
It is BECAUSE there are much more C6 owners and readers of things C6 versus M3 period especially when you count articles and forum posts in ENGLISH! Which is the language YOU use to pick up your “trash” on the internet.
You want numbers?
Start collating forum posts counts for each of the two and see what you come up with!?
This is what I have looking at this C6 forum:
C6: 6,150,813
http://www.m3post.com/forums/
M3 (E 46+E90 + E92 + E93): 1,405,820 (and that is with all the sub entries and additional four years for the E46…that the C6 forum does not have..)
Can you see at least a 4 to 1 ratio? And do you understand why I am writing this to you??
Is it the same ratio for your beloved “cheap” magazine articles?
If not instead of scurrying on Google search for straws why don’t you refresh on the below:
Correlation refers to any of a broad class of statistical relationships involving dependence.
Example: The correlation between the demand for a product and its price
Correlation and causality
The conventional dictum that "correlation does not imply causation" means that correlation cannot be used to infer a causal relationship between the variables
AND most important for YOU than them all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
and then you will be able to answer your own nth idiocy:
“Is it your contention that the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it simply because there are only 5 in the world? C'mon man. Think!”
“The Think!” Cracks me up!
Cracks me up because in the above you first you try to associate your point to me (others) which you do ALL the time and then you come up with the reverse and deranged build of cause and effect..
So NO GUIBO it is not my contention that “the Zonda Cinque actually has a poor interior and flimsy, unsupportive seats, but that we don't hear about it”
It is my contention that since there are only 5 in the world the probability that we will read that it is a POS (I don’t know if it is or not)is much lower than the probability of reading the same for the C6.
AGAIN…to help you out…
Correlation and causality
“Even Tadge Juechter admits the seats are subpar for people who drive aggressively.”
This is not helping your case Guibo…
And the rest is classic trolls feeding plead which I am not going to satisfy.
And why would you pick only one forum? There are plenty of other M3 forums out there.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=68
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/
With the Cinque, we DO know how the seats are (and how frustrating it can be to use the belts), how wonderfully detailed the interior is, how ferocious the car feels, how well it manages bumps, how reactive it is to inputs, how outdated the transmission feels because there have been road tests of it. That means, at a minimum, 20% of Cinque production has been accounted for in road tests. (Can you say the same for the Corvette?)
And how does Tadge's comments work against me? Here's more from Tadge:
"Even as the Corvette and its rivals have scaled the 1-g lateral-grip Olympus-'Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime,' he says-Juechter sees a 'ridiculous overemphasis' on maximum grip on the part of enthusiasts and the industry that serves (and panders to) them. Instead, boosting the Corvette's fingertip feel and driver engagement-and not simply as tires reach their limits-has been a recurring theme in C7 development."
And to that end, team Corvette bought a 911 to benchmark for that very purpose. Ie, when the Corvette's own chief engineer says that subjective traits matter, and when he admits the 911 is superior in this regard, there's more than bloody likely a good chance there's some truth to it.
Where's your proof of 19k M3s vs 214k C6's??
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
Why does that even matter? BMWs have seats fit for purpose. Corvettes do not. In any case, the M3 can pull 1.3g in some corners, as it did on the Nordschleife for Sport Auto's supertest.
Also pulled 1.48g at Laguna Seca.
Also pulled 1.48g at Laguna Seca.
Last edited by Guibo; Feb 21, 2013 at 02:10 PM.
Scraping the splitter.
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St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
Safety Car
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From: GA (some days)
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Verdad Gallardo
Racer
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From: Fredericksburg VA
I seen the ferrari loose to a Z06 with the Z07 suspension upgrades. So if the buyer is concerned about that little fact they might be swayed. If the buyer is just driving around with his wallet hanging out then he can't be swayed.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,000
Likes: 2,261
So you think it's a problem of proportional representation? Why don't you post up the examples of people and journalists complaining about the M3's seat flimsiness or its interior (like comparing it to a Malibu's), and I'll do the same for the Corvette. I guarantee you it will not be a 1:4 ratio.
And why would you pick only one forum? There are plenty of other M3 forums out there.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=68
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/
With the Cinque, we DO know how the seats are (and how frustrating it can be to use the belts), how wonderfully detailed the interior is, how ferocious the car feels, how well it manages bumps, how reactive it is to inputs, how outdated the transmission feels because there have been road tests of it. That means, at a minimum, 20% of Cinque production has been accounted for in road tests. (Can you say the same for the Corvette?)
And how does Tadge's comments work against me? Here's more from Tadge:
"Even as the Corvette and its rivals have scaled the 1-g lateral-grip Olympus-'Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime,' he says-Juechter sees a 'ridiculous overemphasis' on maximum grip on the part of enthusiasts and the industry that serves (and panders to) them. Instead, boosting the Corvette's fingertip feel and driver engagement-and not simply as tires reach their limits-has been a recurring theme in C7 development."
And to that end, team Corvette bought a 911 to benchmark for that very purpose. Ie, when the Corvette's own chief engineer says that subjective traits matter, and when he admits the 911 is superior in this regard, there's more than bloody likely a good chance there's some truth to it.
Where's your proof of 19k M3s vs 214k C6's??
And why would you pick only one forum? There are plenty of other M3 forums out there.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=68
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/
With the Cinque, we DO know how the seats are (and how frustrating it can be to use the belts), how wonderfully detailed the interior is, how ferocious the car feels, how well it manages bumps, how reactive it is to inputs, how outdated the transmission feels because there have been road tests of it. That means, at a minimum, 20% of Cinque production has been accounted for in road tests. (Can you say the same for the Corvette?)
And how does Tadge's comments work against me? Here's more from Tadge:
"Even as the Corvette and its rivals have scaled the 1-g lateral-grip Olympus-'Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime,' he says-Juechter sees a 'ridiculous overemphasis' on maximum grip on the part of enthusiasts and the industry that serves (and panders to) them. Instead, boosting the Corvette's fingertip feel and driver engagement-and not simply as tires reach their limits-has been a recurring theme in C7 development."
And to that end, team Corvette bought a 911 to benchmark for that very purpose. Ie, when the Corvette's own chief engineer says that subjective traits matter, and when he admits the 911 is superior in this regard, there's more than bloody likely a good chance there's some truth to it.
Where's your proof of 19k M3s vs 214k C6's??
I guarantee you it will not be a 1:4 ratio.
There are plenty of other M3 forums out there.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=68
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=68
http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/
And how does Tadge's comments work against me? Here's more from Tadge:
"Even as the Corvette and its rivals have scaled the 1-g lateral-grip Olympus-'Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime,' he says-Juechter sees a 'ridiculous overemphasis' on maximum grip on the part of enthusiasts and the industry that serves (and panders to) them. Instead, boosting the Corvette's fingertip feel and driver engagement-and not simply as tires reach their limits-has been a recurring theme in C7 development."
"Even as the Corvette and its rivals have scaled the 1-g lateral-grip Olympus-'Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime,' he says-Juechter sees a 'ridiculous overemphasis' on maximum grip on the part of enthusiasts and the industry that serves (and panders to) them. Instead, boosting the Corvette's fingertip feel and driver engagement-and not simply as tires reach their limits-has been a recurring theme in C7 development."
1. Your copy and paste is from a credible source and
2. Was not proctored nor modified in any way and
3. deemed contextual as to our discussion?
Now if you want to share some of that P-check with me...than we may be talking...
With the Cinque, we DO know how the seats are..
YOU may know what you know because of mag x, forum z, Top Gear or what have you
What I KNOW is that you REALLY believe most of it and then try to turn us/we in believers as well.
On your way to proselyting your beliefs to me/we you forgot a little nuanced aspect of your interlocutor:
And that is it most likely a rational Corvette owner that, rather surprisingly to you I am sure, can actually add 1 with 1 and always has to engage in a verbal fight with you to prove that the result is not 3!
Where's your proof of 19k M3s vs 214k C6's??
I suppose what you really meant to say is
"what is the proof that there are considerable less owners and posts on the M3 (2006-Present) than the C6?"
To that I say it is now self evident and please stop cutting and de-context my writings. And I did say that 19K M3 sold in the US was an overestimation...so there.. now you have the "proof" of that!
Satisfied?
Last edited by Telepierre; Feb 21, 2013 at 02:54 PM.
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From: GA (some days)
So you think the buying decision comes down to just those two considerations?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
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1) journalist reviews criticizing the M3's interior/seats
2) owners criticizing the M3's interior as cheap (likened to a Malibu) and flimsy, unsupportive seats
3) BMW execs throwing the M3's interior/seats under the bus
So given your past hyperbolic interpretations, modifications, and approximations what makes you believe that I am going to waste my time checking if
1. Your copy and paste is from a credible source and
2. Was not proctored nor modified in any way and
3. deemed contextual as to our discussion?
Now if you want to share some of that P-check with me...than we may be talking...
1. Your copy and paste is from a credible source and
2. Was not proctored nor modified in any way and
3. deemed contextual as to our discussion?
Now if you want to share some of that P-check with me...than we may be talking...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-news...r-is-the-chief
I did not modify anything. It is contextual to our discussion because you seem to think that subjective traits don't count for much, that they are only the product of biased assessments. Unlike me with Porsche, Tadge Juechter actually gets a check from GM. And he's painting a picture that's very different from yours.
What's there not to believe about the Zonda Cinque? I'm not trying to turn you into believers. Just pointing out that even if a population of cars is small, we can still get some idea about its characteristics. Otherwise, we have more discussions claiming that Corvette is stealing sales from Ferrari.
I suppose what you really meant to say is
"what is the proof that there are considerable less owners and posts on the M3 (2006-Present) than the C6?"
To that I say it is now self evident and please stop cutting and de-context my writings. And I did say that 19K M3 sold in the US was an overestimation...so there.. now you have the "proof" of that!
Satisfied?
"what is the proof that there are considerable less owners and posts on the M3 (2006-Present) than the C6?"
To that I say it is now self evident and please stop cutting and de-context my writings. And I did say that 19K M3 sold in the US was an overestimation...so there.. now you have the "proof" of that!
Satisfied?
You didn't say 19K M3s were sold in the US. You said there were 19K M3s and that most were sold in the US. Otherwise you would have said: "xxk M3s, 19k of which were sold in the US." THAT would have established a claim to there being 19k M3s in the States, NOT what you originally wrote.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,000
Likes: 2,261
I agree it is a small number but it would be interesting to see how really small that is in relation to the small number of Ferrari sales.
Please remember I am making this point within the context of "taking sales" from Ferrari...
So is corvette "taking/diminishing" let's say 50 Ferrari's out of a 1000 quota with ZR-1s and Z06s as trivial as let's say Porsche taking/diminishing Corvette sales by 500 on a 10K quota?
Time to break the abacus?
Please remember I am making this point within the context of "taking sales" from Ferrari...
So is corvette "taking/diminishing" let's say 50 Ferrari's out of a 1000 quota with ZR-1s and Z06s as trivial as let's say Porsche taking/diminishing Corvette sales by 500 on a 10K quota?
Time to break the abacus?
AIR FORCE VETERAN
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Pennsylvania
You car fans are going to wear yourselves out with all this BMW talk. I for one could care less about other performance cars. I am a Corvette fan 100%. Doesn't make me better or worse then anyone. It just means I do not care about all this BMW talk. Take to a web place where people care..
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
I agree it is a small number but it would be interesting to see how really small that is in relation to the small number of Ferrari sales.
Please remember I am making this point within the context of "taking sales" from Ferrari...
So is corvette "taking/diminishing" let's say 50 Ferrari's out of a 1000 quota with ZR-1s and Z06s as trivial as let's say Porsche taking/diminishing Corvette sales by 500 on a 10K quota?
Time to break the abacus?
Please remember I am making this point within the context of "taking sales" from Ferrari...
So is corvette "taking/diminishing" let's say 50 Ferrari's out of a 1000 quota with ZR-1s and Z06s as trivial as let's say Porsche taking/diminishing Corvette sales by 500 on a 10K quota?
Time to break the abacus?
To answer your earlier point:
Statistically speaking I know there are C6 owners that could have bought a Ferrari and so in these cases isn't that taking sales from Ferrari?
Bill, it seems you care enough to read and post. This is, after all, a thread about potential rivals.
Last edited by Guibo; Feb 21, 2013 at 04:56 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,000
Likes: 2,261
If you doubt my credibility, then why don't you take me up on the offer? Go ahead, find me those
1) journalist reviews criticizing the M3's interior/seats
2) owners criticizing the M3's interior as cheap (likened to a Malibu) and flimsy, unsupportive seats
3) BMW execs throwing the M3's interior/seats under the bus
My point is that your Corvette:M3 ratio, previously 11.2:1, now 4:1, based purely on forum post counts, is squeezed even tighter.
Here is the credible source. Check it for modifications yourself:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-news...r-is-the-chief
I did not modify anything. It is contextual to our discussion because you seem to think that subjective traits don't count for much, that they are only the product of biased assessments. Unlike me with Porsche, Tadge Juechter actually gets a check from GM. And he's painting a picture that's very different from yours.
Oh, yes. I forget that some people don't peer beyond their own borders. "We" means the collective of automobile enthusiasts who care enough to be informed in this conversation. Forgive me if that does not include you.
What's there not to believe about the Zonda Cinque? I'm not trying to turn you into believers. Just pointing out that even if a population of cars is small, we can still get some idea about its characteristics. Otherwise, we have more discussions claiming that Corvette is stealing sales from Ferrari.
No, what you really need to say is "I BS'ed those 214k C6 vs 19k M3 numbers," because that is exactly what you did. And you're missing the other element which I was clear to include: journalist tests of the M3. I like how you keep "forgetting" this element as if no one will notice. But while you're at it, tell me how many M3s have been sold to present. The last time you posted information about the "present," it was actually only one single year which was years ago, right after the depths of the recession.
You didn't say 19K M3s were sold in the US. You said there were 19K M3s and that most were sold in the US. Otherwise you would have said: "xxk M3s, 19k of which were sold in the US." THAT would have established a claim to there being 19k M3s in the States, NOT what you originally wrote.
1) journalist reviews criticizing the M3's interior/seats
2) owners criticizing the M3's interior as cheap (likened to a Malibu) and flimsy, unsupportive seats
3) BMW execs throwing the M3's interior/seats under the bus
My point is that your Corvette:M3 ratio, previously 11.2:1, now 4:1, based purely on forum post counts, is squeezed even tighter.
Here is the credible source. Check it for modifications yourself:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-news...r-is-the-chief
I did not modify anything. It is contextual to our discussion because you seem to think that subjective traits don't count for much, that they are only the product of biased assessments. Unlike me with Porsche, Tadge Juechter actually gets a check from GM. And he's painting a picture that's very different from yours.
Oh, yes. I forget that some people don't peer beyond their own borders. "We" means the collective of automobile enthusiasts who care enough to be informed in this conversation. Forgive me if that does not include you.
What's there not to believe about the Zonda Cinque? I'm not trying to turn you into believers. Just pointing out that even if a population of cars is small, we can still get some idea about its characteristics. Otherwise, we have more discussions claiming that Corvette is stealing sales from Ferrari.
No, what you really need to say is "I BS'ed those 214k C6 vs 19k M3 numbers," because that is exactly what you did. And you're missing the other element which I was clear to include: journalist tests of the M3. I like how you keep "forgetting" this element as if no one will notice. But while you're at it, tell me how many M3s have been sold to present. The last time you posted information about the "present," it was actually only one single year which was years ago, right after the depths of the recession.
You didn't say 19K M3s were sold in the US. You said there were 19K M3s and that most were sold in the US. Otherwise you would have said: "xxk M3s, 19k of which were sold in the US." THAT would have established a claim to there being 19k M3s in the States, NOT what you originally wrote.
you take me up on the offer? Go ahead, find me those
1) journalist reviews criticizing the M3's interior/seats
2) owners criticizing the M3's interior as cheap (likened to a Malibu) and flimsy, unsupportive seats
3) BMW execs throwing the M3's interior/seats under the bus
1) journalist reviews criticizing the M3's interior/seats
2) owners criticizing the M3's interior as cheap (likened to a Malibu) and flimsy, unsupportive seats
3) BMW execs throwing the M3's interior/seats under the bus
For the millionth time were is the correlation/causation!!!!!!
To insists on your small M3 numbers is to actually prove what I was saying all along and you don't even realize it. IT IS YOU with your "abstractive" powers that conclude that what you have read is conclusive. It is your complete oblivion to the fact that I have sat and touched BOTH with my own hands and SEEN with my OWN eyes to conclude that what you have read is what you have paid for which is at best free and at worst cheap.
My point is that your Corvette:M3 ratio, previously 11.2:1, now 4:1, based purely on forum post counts, is
.
squeezed even tighter
Do you understand 4:1 means something is four times bigger than another??
Does quadruple sound better for you?
squeezed even tighter
So if your M3 posts lap times four times greater than instead than 12 times than a C6 it means you are catching UP???
And do you understand the real context?
The likelihood that an M3 ding is posted is four times less than a C6?
BTW - times implies multiplication in case you were confusing with subtraction or decimals...
AND BTW - My "M3:C6" is still up for debate at several levels..
At the car sales level we can pretty much settle that C6 sold four times (aka quadruple) the M3.
At the number of posts level and within the original context we still have to ascertain the number of English speaking and writers that may have posted on things M3...
The good news is that we know at least 85% of C6 owners are in the US and presumably vet their gripes and praises in English
M3..not so easy but let's try
In the US with have 19K (being very generous it could be down to 12K..)
In UK we have 4Kish
In Australia?
South Africa?
(add your English speaking country here)
Well, would you know? if we take your numbers and add up some to get us to the present and then take my very generous numbers from US and UK and then speculate the rest ..we end up with the 30Kish English speaking base I mentioned a while back…
190K vs 30K … 6 times that is.. (trending up again…no squeeze there…)
I let you do the probability calculation…
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,788
Likes: 164
From: Beaverton OR
This was the way I understood it went!
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2LZwb7RnE
MT FIGURE EIGHT 23.0 sec @ 0.94 g (avg)
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2LZvoFwwP
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.8 sec @ 0.76 g
I'm betting the Vette would require more seat and this would justify Tadge's statement!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
For the millionth time were is the correlation/causation!!!!!!
To insists on your small M3 numbers is to actually prove what I was saying all along and you don't even realize it. IT IS YOU with your "abstractive" powers that conclude that what you have read is conclusive. It is your complete oblivion to the fact that I have sat and touched BOTH with my own hands and SEEN with my OWN eyes to conclude that what you have read is what you have paid for which is at best free and at worst cheap.
To insists on your small M3 numbers is to actually prove what I was saying all along and you don't even realize it. IT IS YOU with your "abstractive" powers that conclude that what you have read is conclusive. It is your complete oblivion to the fact that I have sat and touched BOTH with my own hands and SEEN with my OWN eyes to conclude that what you have read is what you have paid for which is at best free and at worst cheap.
So you're telling me that the CAUSE of all of these reports of poor seat support and subpar interior, by journalists, owners, and even execs themselves is not an actual shortcoming of the Corvette, but merely reflected in the numbers of Corvettes sold. Haha, that's gold. By that logic, there should be even many more complaints by journalists, owners, and execs about the shortcoming of the standard 3-Series, yet where are they? Next, you will try to convince me that the repeated instances of the Zonda Cinque's great interior and not great transmission (compared to the best DCT's) is simply due to there being so many Cinques sold.
It hadn't occurred to you that, like the M3 to the regular 3-Series, the interior is already of high quality in the standard Zonda (for which there are many, many road tests)?At the car sales level we can pretty much settle that C6 sold four times (aka quadruple) the M3.
At the number of posts level and within the original context we still have to ascertain the number of English speaking and writers that may have posted on things M3...
The good news is that we know at least 85% of C6 owners are in the US and presumably vet their gripes and praises in English
M3..not so easy but let's try
In the US with have 19K (being very generous it could be down to 12K..)
190K vs 30K … 6 times that is.. (trending up again…no squeeze there…)
At the number of posts level and within the original context we still have to ascertain the number of English speaking and writers that may have posted on things M3...
The good news is that we know at least 85% of C6 owners are in the US and presumably vet their gripes and praises in English
M3..not so easy but let's try
In the US with have 19K (being very generous it could be down to 12K..)
190K vs 30K … 6 times that is.. (trending up again…no squeeze there…)
C'mon, Telepierre. Why are you so afraid to bring forth the examples of owners, journalists, engineers/execs speaking negatively about the seats or interior of the M3, putting it into a class like a Malibu? Let's see if there really is this 4:1 causal/correlation that you pin down solely on the population size. And just as Tadge said, people don't really cross-shop Corvettes older than the C7 against the Germans. The M3's competitors come from within (335i) and from any number of equally well-made, well-furnished competitors: RS5/TT, C63 AMG, Cayman, perhaps even the IS-F.
Last edited by Guibo; Feb 21, 2013 at 07:52 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 6
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2LZwb7RnE
MT FIGURE EIGHT 23.0 sec @ 0.94 g (avg)
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2LZvoFwwP
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.8 sec @ 0.76 g
I'm betting the Vette would require more seat and this would justify Tadge's statement!
MT FIGURE EIGHT 23.0 sec @ 0.94 g (avg)
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2LZvoFwwP
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.8 sec @ 0.76 g
I'm betting the Vette would require more seat and this would justify Tadge's statement!
"I have this black sweater that my wife absolutely hates. It’s old, falling apart, and has so many holes in the sleeves that I use them like built-in gloves. It’s awful but I love it. And that’s the ZR1’s interior. For $125,920 you still get fake carbon fiber on top of fake leather. Worse, if you’re looking at the phony carbon on the center stack, you can actually see the real carbon fiber on the unpainted underside of the hood’s power bulge. If you had a jacket made from the same “leather” as the Corvette, you’d be ashamed to give it to Goodwill. The less said about the seats, the better."
Also note their comment about what kind of fun can be had on a public twisty road.
With regard to the M3's Laguna Lap, have a look:
http://image.motortrend.com/f/featur...blap_graph.jpg
It pulls over 1g in every single corner measured, higher than 1.3g in 5 of them, with a peak of 1.48g.
Randy's comments on the M3, which placed 2nd to the R8 (nothing derogatory about the seats):
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...g/viewall.html
Compare against comments about the Z06's seats in the same kind of test:
"Then there was the Corvette's perennial Achilles' heel -- those damn seats! Lago noted that with this 'Vette, the ultra-gumballs help highlight just how inferior the seats are. Justin Bell gave me 30 laps around Laguna Seca as a passenger, and there were two of them where my (thankfully) helmeted head repeatedly banged against the window. If you have trouble reading between the lines, those two laps were in the Z06. Justin, who won Le Mans at the wheel of a Corvette, commented that he just couldn't believe a car with such tremendous levels of performance would let the occupants get tossed around in such a ridiculous manner. At one point Bell (almost) missed a 2-3 upshift because he couldn't reach! Justin, who stands about 6 feet tall, had been hurled against the door and had to fight more than his own body weight (the Z06 pulls wacky g's) to sit up straight and push the industrial-strength shifter up and away. To reiterate, the Corvette Z06 had the worst seats of the bunch, by a flying mile. While fast around the figure eight, poor Kim had to hang on for dear life. "It wasn't pleasant," commented Mr. Reynolds.
[Pobst:] 'I had this conscious feeling of the seat being soft, just kind of squishing around in the seat.'"
Agreed on your point about Tadge. If the Corvette engineer says something about the seats, there's probably some shred of truth to it. If the C6's seats were fine, they wouldn't have felt the need to develop not just one but two completely new seats.
Kind of ironic that I get blasted in this thread by a guy who thinks the M5 and Ferrari are legit competitors to the C7 (M5, LOL; maybe only in a straight line), blasted as someone who's out of touch with Corvette, yet there is Tadge backing me up on my statements. And there's more. Here's what I said over 4 years ago:
Puffy-looking seats ditched, check.
And even boasted about by the C7's interior designer:
"And notice the seats: they are not puffy."
http://www.jeanknowscars.com/feature...-helen-emsley/
Meanwhile, which of the Euro brands are striving for the corner-cutting, bang/buck formula that Old GM and Old Chrysler (with its Viper) used?