Why?
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,713
Likes: 11
From: Virginia
I used to be a robot paint process engineer and later on as a paint manager. I even painted parts for the Corvette. I'd like to share some of my experiences.
First I'd like to say not all fenders are equal, each part has it's own unique characteristics that have to be figured out.
It's been my experience that most paint issues aren't usually caused by robotics. I'm not saying there can't be poor programming or an issue can't be mitigated by superior programming just that the robot is generally not the root cause.
The reason is launching new parts and paints (color and/or new vendor) must go through an intensive validation process. In other words it doesn't go live unless it meets all the specs. The GM spec book on paint quality is literally a 3 inch binder and yes we go through the whole thing.
The most likely root cause really depends on the nature of the defect. For example let's go with paint runs. This is a common issue. Unfortunately even this example isn't simple. Since there are several types. Runs, sags, cascade sags, base drag, hanging drip, fat edge, etc. Each type has their own potential list of root causes.
I could easily list 20 things that can cause a run and some are definitely programming but the top causes are:
Paint viscosity
Solvent blend
Humidity
Temperature (ambient, part, paint, oven, flash off zones, the list goes on)
Racking (position, grounding, part density etc)
You'll notice the top 4 are a usually responses to changes in weather. The original processes are generally created, validated and optimized in the spring/summer. Then winter hits. Now the problem isn't the season, that can be compensated for, as much as the transition. Hot afternoon, freezing night, wet morning... Radical shifts require changes and that doesn't happen automatically; it takes a human to figure it out, sometimes by trial and error. Painting is as much of an art as a science.
With that said, there is no excuse for poor paint quality to escape the plant. All these issues should be internal and the customer should not have to experience them. This too is also something the plant will get better at. The car is new, they don't know where to focus their energy so they spend it initially on looking everywhere. Once they get familiar with common issues, QC will be more successful at finding them.
I know it sucks to get a poor paint job and I feel your pain, not only as customer but also as someone who poured his blood, sweat and tear into giving the customer the best paint job possible.
First I'd like to say not all fenders are equal, each part has it's own unique characteristics that have to be figured out.
It's been my experience that most paint issues aren't usually caused by robotics. I'm not saying there can't be poor programming or an issue can't be mitigated by superior programming just that the robot is generally not the root cause.
The reason is launching new parts and paints (color and/or new vendor) must go through an intensive validation process. In other words it doesn't go live unless it meets all the specs. The GM spec book on paint quality is literally a 3 inch binder and yes we go through the whole thing.
The most likely root cause really depends on the nature of the defect. For example let's go with paint runs. This is a common issue. Unfortunately even this example isn't simple. Since there are several types. Runs, sags, cascade sags, base drag, hanging drip, fat edge, etc. Each type has their own potential list of root causes.
I could easily list 20 things that can cause a run and some are definitely programming but the top causes are:
Paint viscosity
Solvent blend
Humidity
Temperature (ambient, part, paint, oven, flash off zones, the list goes on)
Racking (position, grounding, part density etc)
You'll notice the top 4 are a usually responses to changes in weather. The original processes are generally created, validated and optimized in the spring/summer. Then winter hits. Now the problem isn't the season, that can be compensated for, as much as the transition. Hot afternoon, freezing night, wet morning... Radical shifts require changes and that doesn't happen automatically; it takes a human to figure it out, sometimes by trial and error. Painting is as much of an art as a science.
With that said, there is no excuse for poor paint quality to escape the plant. All these issues should be internal and the customer should not have to experience them. This too is also something the plant will get better at. The car is new, they don't know where to focus their energy so they spend it initially on looking everywhere. Once they get familiar with common issues, QC will be more successful at finding them.
I know it sucks to get a poor paint job and I feel your pain, not only as customer but also as someone who poured his blood, sweat and tear into giving the customer the best paint job possible.
No need to get all "technical" here. No body wants to hear that kind of talk.
Its soooooo much easier to blame bad paint on Obama and socialism.
Clearly, its the UAW's fault because if Romney had been elected the paint on Corvettes would be perfect, and everyone in America could afford a Corvette C7 by now. Well maybe not a C7 because Romney wanted GM to go out of business and sell the pieces to the highest bidder. It probably would have taken India or maybe China another couple of years to get the tooling up and running for the C7 and each would be about a hundred grand but heck, the Chinese wouldn't ship Corvettes with paint runs.
And I know that's true because I heard it Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin talking about it on Fox and Friends with Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.
And we all know they couldn't say it on TV if it wasn't true.
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: Huntsville Alabama
The C7 I have on order, is a little under $80k after taxes. I will not accept orange peel at all. That will be the very first area of my inspection, the paint. My salesman/dealership claims the complaints about the paint is way over rated. Supposedly, out of the 6 they sold, only one had a paint issue on the rear driver side quarter panel by the wheel. About 7" x 13" area had orange peel, but the rest of the car and the other 5 was perfect. I will be my own judge/inspector
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 9,217
Likes: 153
From: Ft Mill, SC
Now wait just a minute.
No need to get all "technical" here. No body wants to hear that kind of talk.
Its soooooo much easier to blame bad paint on Obama and socialism.
Clearly, its the UAW's fault because if Romney had been elected the paint on Corvettes would be perfect, and everyone in America could afford a Corvette C7 by now. Well maybe not a C7 because Romney wanted GM to go out of business and sell the pieces to the highest bidder. It probably would have taken India or maybe China another couple of years to get the tooling up and running for the C7 and each would be about a hundred grand but heck, the Chinese wouldn't ship Corvettes with paint runs.
And I know that's true because I heard it Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin talking about it on Fox and Friends with Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.
And we all know they couldn't say it on TV if it wasn't true.
No need to get all "technical" here. No body wants to hear that kind of talk.
Its soooooo much easier to blame bad paint on Obama and socialism.
Clearly, its the UAW's fault because if Romney had been elected the paint on Corvettes would be perfect, and everyone in America could afford a Corvette C7 by now. Well maybe not a C7 because Romney wanted GM to go out of business and sell the pieces to the highest bidder. It probably would have taken India or maybe China another couple of years to get the tooling up and running for the C7 and each would be about a hundred grand but heck, the Chinese wouldn't ship Corvettes with paint runs.
And I know that's true because I heard it Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin talking about it on Fox and Friends with Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.
And we all know they couldn't say it on TV if it wasn't true.
Last edited by musclecar6; Oct 25, 2013 at 06:57 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 7
From: Bluffton,SC
Sorry to hear about your issue. I'm sure (hope) solves your issue.
And just to put things in perspective for you....$300K will buy you a house in the ghetto here. People living in $300K homes here can barely afford a car let alone a luxury car. Shows you how $300K in some parts exude affluence while in other parts exude the total opposite.
And just to put things in perspective for you....$300K will buy you a house in the ghetto here. People living in $300K homes here can barely afford a car let alone a luxury car. Shows you how $300K in some parts exude affluence while in other parts exude the total opposite.
I say most obviously not all.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,191
Likes: 3,388
From: Morrill Nebraska
I have had my new c7 for about a month, I have 644 miles on it and it is a great car, the one downfall is the paint. Today I was wiping it down in the garage and with normal indoor lights I see a run in the paint on the front passenger fender. Now I have to ask, why? The folks have been painting cars, C4, C5, C6 for years. Just because there is a new body style a fender is a fender. I own a 2012 Cadillac SRX costing me 45K, the paint is flawless. So I ask why a 45K Cadillac has a better paint job than a 66K Corvette. What is the difference? Both cars are made by GM, designed by GM but the difference, the Cadillac was made in Mexico. Now having taken 5 Museum Tours and being told that working at Bowling Green is a privilege I ask WHY are we seeing this type of workmanship? The engineers have done an excellent job with the design but it is a shame to see that effort and expertise be deminished by poor quality. Now I'm not going out and sell the car, nor am I going to take it to a GM dealer to have them try to fix it.
In closing, I have my wife's niece's husband works at the KC GM Fairfax plant. He works on the line and he related a story where he noticed all cars coming down the line for the marriage had a dent in the same door. He told his supervisor and was told, don't worry about it, the customer will probably never notice it since it's low on the door. With that mentality friends, our American Way of life is going down the tube, what ever happend to caring and doing the best job you possibly could.
I'm 67 years old, and have seen a lot of changes, unfortunately a lot have been to the detrement of this country. I probably won't live to see it, but if we don't change our ways, we won't be living in 300K homes and driving 65K cars. We will be a broke 3rd world Socialist Country !
In closing, I have my wife's niece's husband works at the KC GM Fairfax plant. He works on the line and he related a story where he noticed all cars coming down the line for the marriage had a dent in the same door. He told his supervisor and was told, don't worry about it, the customer will probably never notice it since it's low on the door. With that mentality friends, our American Way of life is going down the tube, what ever happend to caring and doing the best job you possibly could.
I'm 67 years old, and have seen a lot of changes, unfortunately a lot have been to the detrement of this country. I probably won't live to see it, but if we don't change our ways, we won't be living in 300K homes and driving 65K cars. We will be a broke 3rd world Socialist Country !
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,191
Likes: 3,388
From: Morrill Nebraska
To the smart a.. who thought I never been to a 3rd world country, I spent 18 months in Southeast Asia, Philippines and Vietnam, 66 & 67' probably before you were born. As result of that paid vacation and agent orange exposure I now have Parkinson's , Prostate cancer and skin cancer. Freedom is precious, I grew up in a time that America was a Creditor nation and the envy of the world. When I said we have lot we didn't have to worry about being shot in school and a mans word was his bond. Yes I have seen how people live in a 3rd world country, have you?
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
From: Brooklyn New York
first off, thank you for serving. and i wouldn't let the "trolls" get to you. there are a lot of smart a$$es on the forum that are just plain morons.
i agree, for the money your paying the car should be flawless. to future buyers, check the paint job before the deal is finalized. if too much orange peel, cancel unless they offer to remedy the problem. unless of course your satisfied with what yo got.
and i wouldn't let the "trolls" get to you. there are a lot of smart a$$es on the forum that are just plain morons. i agree, for the money your paying the car should be flawless. to future buyers, check the paint job before the deal is finalized. if too much orange peel, cancel unless they offer to remedy the problem. unless of course your satisfied with what yo got.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,215
Likes: 1
From: Orlando FL
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 20
From: Kingston WA
I used to be a robot paint process engineer and later on as a paint manager. I even painted parts for the Corvette. I'd like to share some of my experiences.
First I'd like to say not all fenders are equal, each part has it's own unique characteristics that have to be figured out.
It's been my experience that most paint issues aren't usually caused by robotics. I'm not saying there can't be poor programming or an issue can't be mitigated by superior programming just that the robot is generally not the root cause.
The reason is launching new parts and paints (color and/or new vendor) must go through an intensive validation process. In other words it doesn't go live unless it meets all the specs. The GM spec book on paint quality is literally a 3 inch binder and yes we go through the whole thing.
The most likely root cause really depends on the nature of the defect. For example let's go with paint runs. This is a common issue. Unfortunately even this example isn't simple. Since there are several types. Runs, sags, cascade sags, base drag, hanging drip, fat edge, etc. Each type has their own potential list of root causes.
I could easily list 20 things that can cause a run and some are definitely programming but the top causes are:
Paint viscosity
Solvent blend
Humidity
Temperature (ambient, part, paint, oven, flash off zones, the list goes on)
Racking (position, grounding, part density etc)
You'll notice the top 4 are a usually responses to changes in weather. The original processes are generally created, validated and optimized in the spring/summer. Then winter hits. Now the problem isn't the season, that can be compensated for, as much as the transition. Hot afternoon, freezing night, wet morning... Radical shifts require changes and that doesn't happen automatically; it takes a human to figure it out, sometimes by trial and error. Painting is as much of an art as a science.
With that said, there is no excuse for poor paint quality to escape the plant. All these issues should be internal and the customer should not have to experience them. This too is also something the plant will get better at. The car is new, they don't know where to focus their energy so they spend it initially on looking everywhere. Once they get familiar with common issues, QC will be more successful at finding them.
I know it sucks to get a poor paint job and I feel your pain, not only as customer but also as someone who poured his blood, sweat and tear into giving the customer the best paint job possible.
First I'd like to say not all fenders are equal, each part has it's own unique characteristics that have to be figured out.
It's been my experience that most paint issues aren't usually caused by robotics. I'm not saying there can't be poor programming or an issue can't be mitigated by superior programming just that the robot is generally not the root cause.
The reason is launching new parts and paints (color and/or new vendor) must go through an intensive validation process. In other words it doesn't go live unless it meets all the specs. The GM spec book on paint quality is literally a 3 inch binder and yes we go through the whole thing.
The most likely root cause really depends on the nature of the defect. For example let's go with paint runs. This is a common issue. Unfortunately even this example isn't simple. Since there are several types. Runs, sags, cascade sags, base drag, hanging drip, fat edge, etc. Each type has their own potential list of root causes.
I could easily list 20 things that can cause a run and some are definitely programming but the top causes are:
Paint viscosity
Solvent blend
Humidity
Temperature (ambient, part, paint, oven, flash off zones, the list goes on)
Racking (position, grounding, part density etc)
You'll notice the top 4 are a usually responses to changes in weather. The original processes are generally created, validated and optimized in the spring/summer. Then winter hits. Now the problem isn't the season, that can be compensated for, as much as the transition. Hot afternoon, freezing night, wet morning... Radical shifts require changes and that doesn't happen automatically; it takes a human to figure it out, sometimes by trial and error. Painting is as much of an art as a science.
With that said, there is no excuse for poor paint quality to escape the plant. All these issues should be internal and the customer should not have to experience them. This too is also something the plant will get better at. The car is new, they don't know where to focus their energy so they spend it initially on looking everywhere. Once they get familiar with common issues, QC will be more successful at finding them.
I know it sucks to get a poor paint job and I feel your pain, not only as customer but also as someone who poured his blood, sweat and tear into giving the customer the best paint job possible.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,813
Likes: 287
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Safety Car
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,629
Likes: 19
From: Chesapeake VA
Every modern car has some level of orange peel... every... single... one. The ones that don't have been wet sanded and buffed after the fact. SRT charges $14k for the Stryker Red on the new Viper. They paint it and plan to wet sand and buff the car. GM doesn't do this... historically the clear is fairly thin on these cars and you have to be very delicate when trying to wet stand the clear. Some owners in past generation have gone and gotten the car re-cleared and then sanded/buffed for a near perfect shine.
Even then, when looking down the side of the car you'll see waviness. Why? It's the nature of the SMC composite body panels. You can have perfect paint, but still have some slight wave. I went through it doing a custom paint job on one of my old C5s. The amount of work to make a truly perfectly flat Corvette is more than most realize.
Even then, when looking down the side of the car you'll see waviness. Why? It's the nature of the SMC composite body panels. You can have perfect paint, but still have some slight wave. I went through it doing a custom paint job on one of my old C5s. The amount of work to make a truly perfectly flat Corvette is more than most realize.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 7,810
Likes: 416
From: FL
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,278
Likes: 550
From: Pittsburgh PA
St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12-'13-'14
So it's important enough to complain about it at length on the Forum, but not important enough to actually get it fixed. Your car, your call, but I guess I don't understand. Your purchase price included the cost of a warranty, why not use it?
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 136,140
Likes: 2,432
From: I live my life by 2 rules. 1) Never share everything you know. 2)
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13, '16-'17-'18
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 988
Likes: 81
From: Danville California
My Laguna blue is not perfect but it's paint is pretty darn good and I'm a stickler. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones as my car has been perfect so far ( only a week old) and I feel for the guys who are struggling with problem cars. In all the cars I've owned I've only had one true lemon - a Benz 190e and for all the Mbz talk of engineered like no other car in the world crap I'll take this c7 us engineered and built masterpiece any day!
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 35
From: Coldville
I started out as an assembler in a big Printer making company.
After I got my AA I became a line Tech, after a year or two at that I became a R&D Tech, so I got to see all processes of the production of are products, but it wasn’t until I became a Quality Control Tech for a company I cant mention but was making a product that was very demanding in a atmosphere that was very unforgiving, that I realized how production really works.
The bottom line was Selling and making money in every case.
So when it comes to a new product there will be bugs but the extra time spent testing and the communication between departments can elevate allot of them, if time is given.
After I got my AA I became a line Tech, after a year or two at that I became a R&D Tech, so I got to see all processes of the production of are products, but it wasn’t until I became a Quality Control Tech for a company I cant mention but was making a product that was very demanding in a atmosphere that was very unforgiving, that I realized how production really works.
The bottom line was Selling and making money in every case.
So when it comes to a new product there will be bugs but the extra time spent testing and the communication between departments can elevate allot of them, if time is given.
